Sorry it's a little late - This week's vote

[Magdalena]

For many keeping track of current events, this question may be posed differently than expected. Once again the discussion of changing our looting policy has come up, and with reasons discussed to date, I find it necessary to remind everyone of the intentions of the looting system that has been in use, especially since many of you were not here when it was chosen.

Our looting system was not designed for quick raid progression. This was realized at the time it was chosen. It was chosen because it keeps with the ideals of what SSX is supposed to represent and some of us seem to have forgotten this along the way.

The design of this loot system was to keep every person (not character) on equal grounds and distribute evenly and fairly between people so that everyone had the same opportunities with a bit of luck still thrown in.

As SSX on Mannoroth, we have always chosen players based on the person at the keyboard/headphones/microphone rather than the character, class or gear they have. This has been a big part of making us the fun group of friends we all are and making this guild as successful as it has been. When choosing a system to better balance loot distribution in game, keeping this attitude in that system was considered just as important as the way we filter through applicants to the guild since like it or not, loot distribution seems to have a major impact on the type of people and type of group you have in this game.

Some argue that Alts taking away from a main is selfish, and theyre right in that it can be. However, I will tell you I have never seen a completely selfish person last very long in this guild. They dont work well in our type of group, as we dont seem to work well for them either. Each and every person in this guild has made sacrifices of some form or another in order to get us where we are today. Some by spending hours upon hours farming, some creating character classes that were in short supply. Im going to take a few minutes to point out a few by name, given I wont get everybody but Im hoping you will see a trend here, and yes, I am picking some you will have no argument about as well as others who have been the target of some very un-SSX like attitudes recently.

First, I will start with myself. For those that know me well enough, they already know being MT is not my favorite thing in the world in this game. The spec Ive placed on my warrior allows for little else but PVE and the job itself is not very fun. It is however something I have chosen to sacrifice because I do enjoy seeing our group get through new challenges and the great feeling of being able to go out and raid with all of my friends. It was something that was needed to help the group so I took it upon myself to take on this challenge. I have more fun playing my Mage actually, in PVE and PVP alike, but I chose to make my Warrior my main as it is what is needed. I do not however expect something like this of others, I like seeing them enjoy themselves. However, I also do not expect to be punished when I do decide at times Id like to be a little selfish and play the character I enjoy for a change. I sacrifice time to be there for almost every single raid we have, I think however its not too much to ask of friends that I be allowed to have a little fun now and then too.

Leapha After leveling a rogue, she realized that many groups fell short on healers, so for the good of the group she rolled a priest which she has turned into her main character. Even though she had a priest, after finding some encounters where it was very beneficial to have a dwarf priest, she started rolling another priest this time a dwarf. We were always short on mages back in the day so she rolled one of those to help too. Then she also rolled a Druid as it is another class we are still short on at times. Yet still she uses her priest the majority of the time to help the group. Should she not be allowed to better those other characters to continue support or should she start passing on her priest? Does that seem fair?

Moonknight His original character and what still holds his heart is his Pally, how many new people would realize this since hes almost always on the lock he rolled due to shortage? He plays what is needed every single raid, this is his sacrifice if Friday he really wanted to play his pally and work on it some, would you want to tell him he can but cant better his actual main toon?

Trixster Plays the healer knowing it would be needed guess what, he has another toon, a 60 Rogue he enjoys if weve got enough healers one night for him to play it, is it fair that he isnt allowed to roll?

Babydolly Had her character fairly well geared up going into MC, has passed often to those that didnt have as much and has opened her schedule to be there for EVERY single raid since we started raiding with KOA. Shes already gotten the one item she really wanted from MC and has still come with her mage every single raid night. She also has a pally, and has been working a Warrior to hopefully at some point be able to switch in and out with me and my Mage for a change of pace for me. So, people dont want this to be possible for either of us?

Hokie/Rlyan Rlyan was his first toon, a Druid, and he uses it when needed constantly. He also uses his lock when it is needed. Both are classes we have been in very short supply on. Every bit of gear he gets on either has benefited the entire guild many times over. Knowing that and knowing that hell continue to do what is needed, if he wants to roll for his Mage and has the percentage, I dont see a problem for it.

Jophiel and Ragingdeath Both are damage specd and both have passed on Warrior items in the past to gear our tanks to help the raid. One has an alt, the other doesnt yet. If either wants to use that percentage to work an alt that can help in areas where their warrior can not (Shazz, Baron for example), I dont think there should be an issue with that.

Icey (Jango and many others) Brings in whichever character is needed, and he has one of each class I think now. Some of these toons are already geared fairly well to great from outside raids he has taken them on previously. If he wants to fill in missing slots on each with his percentage, I dont see a problem with that as theyre all used to help us.

Brandonheat/Gamakun as well as others: How many of you have received pots from people before a big fight? I know Ive seen countless handed out with little to no concern. This takes countless hours of farming to have these items prepared, and is a truly selfless act.

These are the kinds of friends we look for and the type of people that seem to flock to our group, and though we have tough times, I believe weve done very well in the group we have put together here.

There are many many others within the guild like this who have made sacrifices and who do occasionally wish to play for fun too, the reasons for switching to alts are vast and often done without anyone actually having to ask them to do so, or knowing why they did it. They know what is most useful where and do so on instinct.

Will it take us longer to advance this way? Yes, but it will also make us a much stronger more flexible group and well have a lot of fun with friends while doing it as long as our attitudes stay right and we all consider friendships first.

Countless raid nights would have been called off or not nearly as successful though if not for each and every one of these people.

These are some of the reasons for having a system designed by person rather than character. If the system is not giving a fair division by person, then we definitely need to review it, however if it is then it is doing exactly as intended and every person winning an item should be met with huge congratulations as they have earned it.

[Brandonheat]

well said

[undrin]

I feel the voting system is fair as it stands. I do understand fully that is can be frustrating not to get a piece, but at the same time that is not why I am here. I am here to hang out with my friends. I am in the raids to wipe us with a botched pull. Why else would I spend countless hours in front of the computer listening to people say "Typical Hunter".

[ScarletRahl]

Mel thanks for the wounderful post.... You are dong a great job with our loot system thx for all the long, hard hours you are put in :eek:

[Achara]

1. Is the full description of the loot system stickied somewhere? If not, can it be?

2. Are there exceptional situations that would end up falling outside that system?

3. Does the guild as a whole frown upon situations where the all players of a class on a particular night just decide to give a piece to someone? Say we know it's the last set piece for them or something? I guess what I'm asking is if the rules are meant to be completely rigid.

Thanks for the help,
Catherine

[Magdalena]

1. Is the full description of the loot system stickied somewhere? If not, can it be?

2. Are there exceptional situations that would end up falling outside that system?

3. Does the guild as a whole frown upon situations where the all players of a class on a particular night just decide to give a piece to someone? Say we know it's the last set piece for them or something? I guess what I'm asking is if the rules are meant to be completely rigid.

Thanks for the help,
Catherine

Catherine,

1. The description is here somewhere, I will have to try and find the post and bump it up (if another officer finds it first, please feel free to do so.)

2. There are exceptional situations, there is a ruling in there that anyone can request officers to review something for a specific reason, however it would take a unanimous vote of all officers not involved or RL related to person involved to overturn something, and being that we don't all always agree even on the simple things, it's going to have to be something smack dab obvious. Any member can request this at any time, just understand we try not to let it happen very often (it never has as far as I know to date).

3. The rules aren't meant to be rigid by any stretch. If someone chooses to pass to someone else for whatever reasoning, that is their choice. They should not however be asked by any person in any manner to do so, this should be a choice they come to on their own free will.

These are the reasons even as main tank I have violently refused every suggestion that I should be given priority on tanking gear, ask QD on this one... much to his dismay I'm very stubborn. I have had some very generous members of the warrior group decide to pass on certain items, but this is a generous notion on their part, never something I would ask for or expect. Even on my last piece of my set I didn't do so, and was happy for the person that won it... I'll get it eventually. As an officer I would never expect out of others what I do not expect out of myself. Sometimes this isn't always easy, and we all mess up once in a while... luckily this has always been a group that understands we're all human, sometimes even a bit too forgiving in a few circumstances but I'd rather be with a group too forgiving then the opposite end of the spectrum any day.

I too have had moments of weakness wanting to get mains geared to get to other instances faster... the rush of making it there can take over you if you let it, but I keep reminding myself of why I really play and how much fun the journey is going to be getting there....

I'm personally thinking of starting to do MC like I used to do BRD... a few will remember me running through screaming "I need more rage!" Bet I just made fear shivers run down a couple people's spines.... muaahahahaha


edit - PS - Any time you have questions about stuff like this, let me know... I'm always open to help out...

[Bladesinger]

Under the conditions we originally came up with the current loot system I would say yes, it works. However, I've perceived those conditions has having changed as we've raided more and more.

Personally, and I don't think many know or understand this, I absolutely detest raiding, 20 or 40 member groups it doesn't matter. The only reason I went was to support the guild, period. It's not about the group interaction. How often do we hear "Keep the chatter down" in vent? Raid chat is nice, but we can get the same in guild chat and include those members not in the raid. The majority of the guild wanted to explore Molten Core and I knew they needed as many people as possible so I went along with it.

What I have to say is contrary to public views and/or opinion, reader be warned.

I voted no for very specific reasons. I perceive the guild as a whole emphasizing raid content much more than it used to be. We have started going from a group where we were just happy to be able to be in MC downing trash mobs to a group that has begun emphasizing downing a certain number of bosses in a certain amount of time so that we can hopefully accomplish a certain objective the next night. I don't see that in any way as being casual raiding.

The recent push to get to Domo in one night and then attempting Rag the next includes preparing our character's spec for raiding, spending countless hours farming materials for potions that have been *required* for attendance to certain raids, spending even more countless hours farming materials for the FR gear that has been *required* for certain portions of the raid.

Again, I don't see how requiring people to spend their off-raiding time is considered casual gaming or could be considered fair to those players who may not want to spend their hours farming the materials for the required items. I do, however, see the benefit of having these items when it comes time to make the attempts that people have been pushing for. Just ask Jerimie how many elemental fires, fiery essences, and Lung Juice mats I've sent to the bank since the requirements have gone out.

If we're going to set a goal and hold certain reqirements for our players in order to better meet those goals we should be concentrating solely on that goal. In my mind that equals putting all of our effort into each of us getting a single toon to maximum effectiveness. To do otherwise disrespects all of the time each of us has put into getting the reputation needed to make FR gear, farming the materials or gold to either make or buy the required FR gear, and finally all of us who spend hours farming the materials to make the potions required for such attempts.

In that context I believe percentage for a player vs. toon is unfair to everybody. In the above context I also see the need to declare mains and get those mains geared as quickly as possible as being the method that is most fair and respectful to everyone in the raid group. By doing it this way not only are we maximizing our effectiveness in our attempts to accomplish the goals that have been very publicly expressed but we're also respecting the time people spend on their own "off hours" farming materials that have been required for certain raids.

To me, requiring anything of our players in order to raid sounds an awful lot like what people call "hardcore" raiding. If we're going to hold certain requirements of our players and are going to push as hard for certain goals as we have been the current "hands-off totally casual raiding" system needs to be modified, if only until those goals have been met.

Secondly, I voted no, the current system doesn't work, or more correctly, doesn't apply as fully to the current situation due to recent discussions about exploring new content. I'm specifically referring to BWL.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I think exploring new content is awesome and is necessary to keep people's interest and attention. How often did we have to worry about people not showing up for a raid when we first started MC on our own? Hardly ever. We may not have had the numbers yet in the guild to do it, but those who had the toon capable were there all the time. Now that we've gone all the way to Rag and are sort of stuck in the lack of gear quagmire we've had a lot more issue with lack of attendance.

In order to explore that new content which people are discussing exploring our raid group has to be outfitted to the utmost. This means, yet again, each player needs to put his/her focus into outfitting a single toon as well as possible so that the goal of exploring new content and downing a new boss or two can be accomplished. Generalizing gear distribution is counter-productive to the goal of exploring new content that others (not I) have expressed.

People seem to want their cake and eat it too. We can't be both a casual guild and be pushing towards goals that would otherwise be considered hardcore raiding.

I agree with what a number of level headed people have said. We, as a guild, absolutely must figure out exactly what we want.

1) If everyone is content with simply wandering through MC each weekend and not pushing for anything other than spending the time together farming the bosses then I believe the current player-oriented percentage system works.

2) If everyone wants to work toward the goal of downing Rag in a weekend and then exploring new content in BWL then no, the current player-oriented loot system is not the best way to facilitate such a goal. Such changes need not be permanent but they must be consistent until we're geared appropriately to accomplish the goal we've set.

Yes, this will require sacrifice on the part of nearly every player with the choice of multiple toons capable of running MC. However, the quicker the main assault group gets geared up the sooner people will have to stop taking one for the team because we'll have a greater pool of capable toons to pull from. It will no longer be Magdalena being the only warrior in the raid with sufficient tanking gear because at that point all of the warriors will have their stuff. The faster we specialize, the sooner we can generalize and give all of our players the freedom to choose which toon to play without having to feel guilty about doing what's best for the guild that run. This leads to my next point.

Once the core group of toons is geared out appropriately for attempting Rag why can't we have "Anything Goes" nights? How about having every Friday thereafter be a night where everyone brings in whatever character they want to play simply for the fun and challenge of playing an "off class"? If we get far that's great, if not, that's fine too. Then, on Saturday we all come in on the geared group and go beat the snot out of Rag.

By that time people will have the percentage to play around with and the freedom to use it however they want without having to worry about if it's going to affect them in the long run; ala Chris and the Hokie vs. Rlyan debate.

I understand this has gone a little off topic, but it seemed to be the place to talk about such things. If you actually read through all of this props to you, I've got the feeling it's going to be encyclopaedic in length once submitted.

[Achara]

I definitely think situations where people are passing loot to a particular would be up to them and not expected behavior. Remember, I'm only a few feet any from my husband when we're raiding with our hunters, we're quite likely to pass gear off to one another if we are the only ones who need it.

I also don't think it's necessarily wrong for classes to discuss who needs what as long at it's in a no obigations, no expectations sort of way. I personally like to know. There is one hunter piece in particular that I want eventually but not enough to roll against someone else that needs it.

Of course, any attempt to force consensus would be wrong.

~ Catherine

[Magdalena]

Couple of things here in response Blade... first, we have come up with a list of stuff that yes is very helpful and much needed to work towards downing Ragnoros, but you are wrong because we have NOT made any of this a requirement for raids. If that were the case, about 1/4 of our raid wouldn't be able to go to MC most of the time.

Second, bringing this discussion to every single thread is not needed. The question here was not whether it was working the way you percieve as optimal for your goals, you and others despite the request to hold off on the topic for cooler heads to prevail already opened plenty of those flame wars on your own. The post was a telling of what the decided joint goals of this system were and asking if they were working as designed.

Do we want to explore new content? I've always received an answer of yes. This group has always and still does however walk a fine line. The goal has always been to not cross that line, keep our closeness, our friendships, and treat one another with respect. Treating your fellow mates as a character rather than an individual is in no way showing respect.

I've been trying to give you time to cool down and I am strongly suggesting you take the time to do so, step away from the computer, outside, whatever you need to do. The person presenting himself through this is not the Phil I know and love.

You have flooded even completely non loot related topics with your complete abhorration, and even gone to extremes of out right lieing on these forums. Back up and take a look at what you're replying to and the responses you are giving please.

If you want examples, for one saying you wouldn't have been the winner of items anyway, as I tried to point out in vent before being talked over by you rowdy boys that night, you would have been, I still had it all up on my screen.

You're also not listening to anything anybody else has said, only the parts you choose to hear.

This is in no way a suggestion for you to leave SSX or anything of the sort just so I'm clear and we don't have another misunderstanding, it is however a strong suggestion for you to get out of this topic for a while and go clear your head before you end up damaging friendships beyond repair. There are some already that are going to take work to get back, not because of what you'd like to see happen but because of your way of handling it.

If I'm being too blunt in this I apologize, but you're being a jerk to all of us right now and nothing else seems to reach your ears, let alone your mind.

[QuantumDelta]

That line is razorsharp.

I have a lot which I need to post on this topic, and it - to you guys, is loot focused, which is a shroud around the real topic/problem at the moment.
Though that's not surprising since the loot focus springs from one of the flaws in the design of the system(s) you employ.

Does the system at current work as intended?
Why yes, yes it does.
The problem is, the system's intend does not match the other rules and is a little abrasive to the nature of the guild.
(It's also quite complex and therefore made very front-end, which means people only focus on the front end, which - is loot).

[Bladesinger]

Mel,

No, you're not being too blunt. I wish we had more bluntness in our group. We need to be unequivocal in our discussions. Couching terms and thoughts in order to avoid hurt feelings too often leads to misunderstandings which cause more hurt than would have happened from direct talk.

There's a very good reason why I keep all of my discussions with people on the open forums. Back before the SSX when it was just the SSC we had horrendous issues with things being said in private or being deleted from forums which then precipitated major public misunderstanding and even greater conflict. I'm very consciously staying public with what I say, to the point of repeating myself, to avoid those issues. I want everyone to know exactly what I say in response to everything and I want a permanent record of everything I say. It avoids a lot of the "But he/she said [X] to me in private!" problems that 99% of the time make things worse.

I'm not at all mad at you or anyone. In fact, I'm quite happy with my current situation. If it helps to know, Averegor is my only guilded toon now. The notion of me raiding at all, and on Velorraena in particular, has been completely removed from the equation at this point. I thought you might like to know Mel, when QD was talking with me last night my immediate reaction to hearing that you're not pleased with being the MT and would rather play Alma was "I should start grooming Averegor to take up some slack so she has the option of not tanking all the time." Ask him if you feel the need to. I hope that shows that I'm not mad and that I have a great deal of respect for the people, like you, who make the sacrifice week in and week out.

Mel, if you're interested, I would enjoy working with you on learning how to be an effective MT. I've got to step back from raiding for a while, but the time spent in finishing out Averegor's levels and getting him geared appropriately should accomplish that. If, during that time, you would be willing to help teach me I would be happy to groom Averegor to be a viable replacement for Mag for those times when you really just want to play something else.

For the record, I'm declaring publicly right now that I won't roll on anything that's not considered a default or items no other possible tank, warrior or paladin, wants to roll on. He's my declared main but he won't ever be a regular enough raider to warrant anything but defaults or items nobody wants to roll on.

I apologize to you for bringing my opinions up yet again when you feel they're not appropriate. I was trying to put my points into context with your original post by giving examples of why I thought the current player oriented loot system isn't the best option. I thought giving examples to back up points was good communication.

What good is a simple vote, for or against, without explanation of why? I see 17 yes and 2 no votes, but I don't see a lot of reasoning why people voted that way. Without clarificaton it appears that each yes vote is a 100% endorsement and each no vote is a 100% rejection. I voted no, but I don't 100% reject the current system because it does recognize the effort put into each specific player's efforts. Likewise I'm sure some of the people who voted yes may see things that need to be changed, if only slightly.

Serious, calm and collected question: Was I not clear in what I said when explaining why I voted the way I did and then putting my reasons into context of the current situation? If I wasn't I'm happy to try explaining things differently so it's more understandable. I realize I may understand what I'm saying but not everyone else does.

On the topic of things being required. It has been brought up many times that players need to have a certain amount of FR gear and need to have a certain potion or two in order to attempt Rag. Such things have been said over Vent and posted as the Message of the Day more than once. Such thoughts and requirements haven't been enforced but they've been expressed. I can recall hearing "It's ok for this fight, but next week you need to have [it]." each time I've been to a Rag attempt.

I apologize sincerely if I've misunderstood the discussions that went on in officer and guild vent meetings on the subject of certain things being required. All I have to go on are my perceptions and understandings of those talks as well as the non-meeting mentioning of needing such things.

The goal has always been to not cross that line, keep our closeness, our friendships, and treat one another with respect. Treating your fellow mates as a character rather than an individual is in no way showing respect.

I believe otherwise for the reasons I stated in my prior post. Making every effort to minimize each players non-raiding time spent preparing for a raid in my view shows the utmost respect for each player. Likewise, making the effort to minimize everyone's time and effort spent getting their toon ready to achieve the group's stated goal shows again shows the utmost respect for the player and for the guild as a whole.

I'm going to repeat myself again in hopes I'm more understandable this time. I agree wholeheartedly that a general, player-based, loot system shows respect and recognition of each player's efforts and that showing such respect is highly important. However, such a system only respects the player as a singluar entity. I feel strongly that player-oriented loot distribution does not respect the guild as a whole and especially those players who have put forth the extra effort outside of the raid to gather materials needed by the guild as a whole for a run. Fire res pots being the perfect example of this.

Each and every time we attempt Rag without downing him shows disrespect to those people who gathered the items and have spent time trying to make one character the best it can be. Numbers aren't so much a limitation for Rag runs because we usually take the vote each time to make the attempt or not if we don't have sufficient numbers. Each unsuccessful attempt is yet another time where those people gathering materials have to go out again and gather more for the next [hopefully successful] attempt. Our tactics are sound and we have the skill.

Our limitations now are gear and regularity in party composition. The ability to anticipate what the group as a whole will do next and how each individual fits into the grand scheme cannot be underestimated. Regular exchange of toons within the group between or within runs hinders that ability. Our own runs are a perfect example of this. We use up more time (disrespecting every player's time limitations) having to explain fights or come up with new tactics to suit each run because we don't have a consistent class make up.

Again, I agree with everyone, we can't force members to raid, and is, above all else, something we must avoid. Due to that stricture we will always have slight variation in our party make up. That variation can however, be minimized, and out of respect for every player in the raid it should be minimized. Respect of players' time is just as important as respect of players' percentage. In fact, I feel it is more important. We all owe it to eachother to provide eachother with the most effective use of our time spent in the run. I think we can all agree that time spent listening to explanations and/or just standing around waiting for things is not effective, but is counter-productive.

Please know that I see, hear, and understand the points being made by everyone. I don't agree with all of them 100% of the time and I'm not going to agree with them 100% of the time. My feelings on these issues are strong and deep and aren't going to change. I understand and respect those of you who feel differently than I do but hold your beliefs as deeply as I hold mine. We're not going to agree and in the end that's ok. What really matters is that everyone feels free to express his/her opinions, actually does freely express those opinions and thoughts, and that a resolution to the situation is reached with all thoughts and points of view taken into account.

The one thing I know for sure in this whole fiasco is that whatever is decided it has to be made *obviously clear* to everyone, whether he or she was able to make it to the meeting or not. We need to have those guidelines, whatever they are, in place and easily accessable so that each member knows what to expect 100% of the time. There are always exceptional situations but as long as we know how those exceptions will be dealt with outside of the norm we all can have confidence in the result.

Mel, I know you're going to be one of the few who reads this all the way to the end. My offer above is sincere and wholehearted. Averegor's in place right now to start working toward being a viable substitute in conjunction with Weili's warrior if you want it.

[Jango]

Here is my take of the situation and why I voted YES
I have been a participant on a number of looting system (DKP, Percentage, Free-Roll, Bid, Loot council) and let me tell you that no system can please everyone and are perfect. No matter how you view it. Once you have a loot system in place, It will not cater to everyones expectation and all of them are based on attendance in a way. And from what I have seen, percentage loot with SSX has by far been the most generous and relax on attendance in loot distribution. If you were in another guild, I would wager you would not have gotten what you have in the same amount of time spent raiding.

Even though our current loot system has flaws in it. I believe we can make it work by compensating with who we are instead of making any drastic changes to it. While it is not stated it our current loot rules, I believe people take upon themselves to be considerate and pass on items if they felt the other person need it more. As with all loot systems, if the individual is too focus on loot than no system in the world can work.

I cant say this for everyone in SSX but I believe the majority of us play this game for fun and the company we have online. The ugly fact of WoW is once you reach 60. Gear grinding becomes a factor of the game and especially when you hit the 40-man instance. Loot disagreement has been one of the big reasons for a lot of guild breakups. SSX is not a hard core raiding guild. We play when we can and when we want. If we manage to pick up some nice gear on the way and progress to new content. Its a plus and not our main focus.

Many of you know that I have multiple 60s spread across a number of guild and let me tell you. The amount of time I spent with SSX people surpass the time I spend any where else.

While I dont agree 100% with the whole debate with Mains/Alts. I do see the point but unless we are going full steam ahead in conquering new instances. I think its a bit extreme in focusing on one character and I doubt many of the SSXers are ready to take that step.

For anyone who has multiple 60 or has played a RPG game in the past, one of the fun aspects of that type of game is trying out a different class at some point. Just to see what you like better and experience the same content in a different perspective. Granted it might take the guild longer to progress to new content but the journey will be more fun for everyone. As you know, some individual have make sacrifices in strictly playing one class just so the run is smoother but at our current stage. Even though not everyone is totally decked out in T1 or better, I believe we are sufficiently gear to allow positions to be handed to someone willing to do it. Letting an alt gear up allows for that possibility and in the long run the guild will be better off. The dynamics of people with multiple gear toons can compensate for whatever we need in the future.

Some of you may not agree with this right now and wonder about peoples underlying motivation for playing multiple toons but I hope some of you might at least understand it better once you have another toon that are 60 and in the same guild.

Honestly, the only time I consider myself having an alt is when the toon is non-60. Having me declare a main among my 60s is essentially asking me to decide which one I like better. Just like asking me which fingers on my hand I like better.

Lastly, if we ever do a boss that we never downed before. I hope people have enough sense to bring the toon that is the most equip and most beneficial to the raid.


Icey - 60 mage
Iceberg - 60 Hunter
Jango - 60 Warrior
and a few others

[Brandonheat]

Which Hand do you prefer, Jyh?