What do the Goons contribute to the CFC?

[Kon]

I'd appreciate it if Oz could weigh in here, as he's an SMA council member, but I'd also like to hear everyone's opinion on this issue.

Why are we allied to Goons? What do we, or anyone else in the CFC get out of it? Most people outside the CFC refer to the coalition simply as "Goons," and call SMA, TEST, Gents, FA, etc "Goon pets." I could live with that, and it might make sense, if Goons was actually not complete shit. When I started EVE, I thought Goons were the largest alliance in EVE, and that was why we followed them. As it turns out, the third largest alliance in the game is also TEST, our CFC friends in Fountain. Now, the numbers argument makes less sense.

So why does the rest of the CFC let Goons dictate policy? Why were Goons in charge of dividing newly-conquered Branch? Who agreed that they should place the smallest alliances right on the enemy's doorstep, while taking all of the secure space for themselves? Why should Goons order everyone to de-blue BDEAL, and have them kicked out of fleets and treated as spies? Why are CFC fleets always led by the piss-poor Goons FCs? Why is there never a shred of organization or timeliness? Why do I have to sit in Mumble for three hours and listen to some sad jerk make all kinds of racist, sexist, and anti-semetic, "jokes" that I haven't heard since I was 12? Why does a just-for-fun CFC fleet get spammed over Jabber when there are defensive fleets for FA, SMA, or others up at the same time?

I tolerated all this shit in the past because I never questioned that our relationship with Goons was to our benefit. For most of February I actually just ignored CFC fleets altogether, but this month I forgot what I was missing and started doing them again. Every time, I've stayed in TS3 and listened to the other SMA guys echo everything I'm mentioning. How annoying the Goons are and how poorly their fleets are run. And if you look at the alliance tags in Mumble, Goons don't even make up a very large percentage of their own fleets.

The last straw for me was Mister Vee's fleet last night. We went to Perrigen Falls to help Shadow of Death, but we were a vastly outnumbered Drakeswarm going up against a bigger fleet of Tengus and Abaddons. Who's bright idea was that? Not to mention that a lot of friendly fire occurred because Shadow of Death and their allies did not temp-blue us. This is the result. Add to that the fact that the Titan bridge was for Goons only, and that the FC was mocking Americans the entire time during an op in US timezone, and it's hard to see what we get out of all this.

Could someone please explain to me why Goons deserves to be in charge of the CFC? I've dealt with them in other games for many years, and they pull the same shit everywhere. They will betray us the first moment it is convenient for them. What are we getting out of this? Why can't TEST or Gents be the main force in the CFC, or better yet, why don't we act like an actual coalition of allies?

[Theoroshia]

Well Kahn, to answer your well thought out post, GOONs has and always will do whatever they want for one very simple reason: FOR THE LULZ.

[NewportBox]

I'll begin by stating that even though I am young to both this corp and alliance, I've *never* had a problem with any of our FC's / LC's / etc.

They've always spoken to their respective fleets with dignity and respect.

And I do agree with River when he said that they do need to make mistakes of their own, and that it's the best + fastest way for them to learn. I've had my fair share of bad decisions made by an FC, and chalked it up to a learning experience for the both of us lol.. And admittedly I've made PLENTY of newb mistakes of my own! But I digress, I'm trailing off topic already.

My point is this - I'll follow orders to the bitter end. The structure of command that us Monkeys and our allies (with some exceptions, as I'll get to in a second) thought out, well oiled machine that does it's job well with few problems. The reason for this is because they *do* treat us with respect, and expect the same in return. What's the point in starting in right off the bat with insults and needless trash talking? Sure, we talk shit back and forth - that's one of the things that keeps this band of misfits and it's allies both strong and committed to the cause. But there's a line that is not, and should not be crossed.

I've not yet heard one of our FC's mention *anything* along the lines of "<censored> americans", "worthless americans", "useless americans", or anything even close to that. (You can replace the word "Americans" with "Europeans" if you'd like, for I've not heard that either) For that matter, I don't believe I ever will. And yes, by the way.. those are direct quotes.

I don't give a damn if that's his personality or not.

That kind of broad-sweeping racial generalizations should not, and quite honestly will not stand.

Please understand my intent is not to make waves here.. especially within both my probationary period / first experiences with you all. Seriously, I don't want to

The have two reasons for writing this reply:

1. Kahn is right.

2. It's only a matter of time before others start getting sick of this kind of crap, if they're not already.

Like I said, I'll follow orders to the bitter end. That's who I am.

That being said, please note that I left Mister Vee's fleet the moment I realized a second fleet was being formed. I was minutes away from leaving it regardless, if a second fleet wasn't formed.

My Apologies In Advance If This Is In Bad Form,

Newport "Spankin' Da" Box

[Stracius]

Short version, mostly because I don't have all the details, Goons went a long way to help SMA get their shit together as an alliance and start growing.

Shit FCs: As Hader pointed out, Goons are in it for the lulz. Some see the long-term reward, some just want to pew. They have a lot of awesome people and superb FCs, but consequently they have asshats too. I'm disappointed that you've been seeing more of the latter type than the former, I hope they get their shit sorted. In the mean time the best solution is to figure out which FCs are the ones to avoid, and stop joining their fleets.

Why are they the ones calling the shots? Because when the Northern Coalition fell apart and people started abandoning nullsec (and us), they stayed. They pulled shit together and formed the CFC, and invited us to join. They are the founders, and the ones getting it all done.

As for the distrust: I have no reason to believe that they will, at any point, have reason to throw us to the dogs. They have more to gain by keeping us as allies than they do by losing part of the CFC. I don't know all the details - I imagine Oz may - but SMA was offered a chance to move into a bigger, more profitable section of space. It would be dangerous, but potentially worth it. We took the offer.

We are not entitled to big sections of "safer" nullsec space that other alliances occupied. We were offered a better place than where we came from. We took the offer. Complaining about how so and so have a better section of space is like working hard for a paycheck, and then turning around to complain that a faster, more skilled co-worker got paid more (in this case bigger and possessing more supercapitals).

Did I mention bigger? SMA has been growing, but we're a very small alliance. We participated in a lot of fighting, but the larger alliances easily dominated us in showing and manpower. The fact that Goons offered us this chance is a hell of a recognition of our skills and ability to fight reds.

Wait, wasn't this going to be the short version? Oh well.

There's also the little confusion about there actually being 2 goons in EVE. Goonfleet and Goonswarm.

[Whizbang]

I'm not involved in EVE anymore and haven't been in well over a year. But I can say this, anyone who believes that the GOONS need you are sorely mistaken. I've played EVE since beta 2002/2003, saw the launch of EVE in May 2003, and was there to watch EVE grow into what it is today (with the except of things happening from spring of 2010 on). I watched the GOONS invasion of EVE. I watched GOONS grief their own kind as well as others in the initial attempts of GOONS to stabilize a successful GOON corp. I was present when GOONS enacted JihadSwarm. I remember when Remedial, GOONS CEO, stole billions of in-game assets from GOONS and the subsequent appointment of the Mittani to replace him.

These are just a few things I wanted to point out as those who have been around long enough should recall each one rather vividly.

My point? You can take GOONS out of the LULZ, but you can never take the LULZ out of the GOONS. And to trust them is to play into their philosophy that no one is above being griefed or used for GOONS own purposes. You guys spend your time and effort in playing so you ultimately decide who to blue and who to red. But the day you start thinking GOONS needs you is a very sad day indeed.

Just my 2 cents.

[Stracius]

Which is why I didn't use the word need anywhere in the above. It's all about value. Which do they value more, an alliance that can guard the front door to CFC space effectively, or more people to grief?

At the moment, as you may not realize since you admittedly haven't played for quite some time now, our worth as the former is more than the latter.

Now quit trying to ruffle Kahn's feathers; he's paranoid enough as is.

[Whizbang]

Now quit trying to ruffle Kahn's feathers; he's paranoid enough as is.

No need for me to ruffle his feathers. Kahn's well-familiar with GOONS and their antics. His feathers are ruffled already.

[Theoroshia]

Oh, just a tid-bit: from a few guys I know in GOON's/TEST, apparently SMA is well liked not because of our combat prowess but because we're industrial whores. Which I'm cool with, seeing as how we get such shiny space and all.

And hi Mech!

[Kon]

Mech is right, I've spent what seems like a lifetime dealing with Goons' garbage in CN. In that game, they eventually went so far over the line that many of their leaders got banned from the game. This ended up being the worst thing that could have possibly happened, because it led to a bunch of wannabe assholes popping up as claimed successors. These folks were worse than the original because they actually took the game way too seriously, and used the doctrine of "for the lulz" as justification for their underhanded tactics.

From what little I know of EVE and its recent history, it seems that the Deklein-based Goonswarm Federation are these wannabe assholes compared to the original GoonSwarm in the south. Hell, just a quick look at the Goonfleet website and it's 92 levels of "security" showcase how seriously Goons take the game. They've also been spamming the whole CFC with their stupid campaign for CSM, the body of players who lobby CCP for gameplay changes. So sorry if I don't buy the lulz argument.

As for Goons needing us to protect the gateway to CFC space, where the hell was the CFC when Initiative dropped sov in JTAU? Everyone except POS gunners was called away to some big fleet in VFK, and SMA had to go back home later and deal with almost the whole pocket being red. I was in high sec when all this was going on, but from what people were saying, it took around 36 hours to recover our own space. Why? Because Goons said their pointless structure bash was more important.

[winbrian]

Being that one system usually doesn't bring the entire CFC fleet to save one system, at least I wouldn't...
But last night, Init. dropped sov blockade units in almost every system with a station in our space.
We did have help from the CFC. Normally I think we could take care of the sov blockade units ourselves, but
that was quite a few sov blockade units down for us to handle alone. I think when things are dire, the think
the council asks the cfc for help. Even if we do lose some sov, the CFC will help us get the space back.

As for structure bashing, some are very important. Some tech moons are very valuable that if the timer is
in the cfc's favor. They will drop everything and try to hit that tower.

And... goon's was on CN too?

[NewportBox]

But last night, Init. dropped sov blockade units in almost every system with a station in our space.
We did have help from the CFC.

I second this. The CFC was definitely there, and used a Titan bridge to get there from WLF. They were alot of help last night / early this morning, and that help is greatly appreciated.

I think this post might have been derailed from it's original intent. The OP's primary concern (if I am reading it correctly lol) was that of a horrific FC, that was w/ Goons. (And the fact that many of SMA members cannot stand being in mumble with them for the same reason) I still back up the same post I was backing before, but with an added note:

I do appreciate what the CFC does for us, they honestly do a hell of alot.. and when our council requests help, the CFC's there with a nasty quickness. Being a member of the CFC, I therefore have to appreciate what Goons does bring to the same table that the rest of us alliances come to. It just seems that on the "dickhead-o'meter" the Goons seem to push the meter farther to the right than the rest.

Regardless, if there are any Goons reading this (which I highly doubt there are) - Thank you for coming to our aid last night.

Newport "Inspectin' Your" Box

[SL33PY]

I like the new activity in the forums

[NewportBox]

Newport can haz forum whore title :P

[Anubis]

I like the new activity in the forums

Off topic, but this is so true

[Kon]

Since this thread got bumped I'll just leave this here, although I'm sure everyone has heard already. Totally not surprised.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/26 ... -bullying/

[winbrian]

Mittins got 30day ban for violating TOS
He also resigned from CSM7

[NewportBox]

And to WAR we go!!!

God I can't wait until it's the day we launch on Jita.