Our current sustainability

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Our current sustainability

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:04 pm

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Stracius
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Well, it needs to be addressed.

At some point we pretty much stopped actively recruiting, and we lost a lot of activity that new people can bring in. Perhaps we became too comfortable with ourselves, I can't really say. All I know is that people won't join us unless we ask them to. The recent change back to active recruitment has thus far only managed us two new people (only one of those I've seen online since).

It's been brought to my attention that several of our current players have been approached by at least one other active kin to join them, and it's a hard offer to turn down. Considering our numbers, that's pretty much half of our kin.

So it has been suggested that we entertain the possibility of joining another kin, one that would have a currently active playerbase of about 40-60 or so people. As it is, I log on to see our players being limited to grinding deeds, leveling, and crafting to pass time. The only way they can get into doing their quests and storyline progression is through PUGs and other kins willing to open a few spots for us. Frankly I'm impressed at the resolve of the remaining members' will to stay.

Our other alternative would be to stick with recruiting - a much slower, and not always successful process. I realize it's difficult to meet and group with new players when all of your characters are level 40-50. Kinless level 50's are rare, to say the least. It's going to take more effort than we've put into it thus far, that much is certain.

I'd also just like to point out that I'm in no way endorsing an abandonment of who we are, much less the kin. I pretty much consider myself in for the long haul, good or bad. However it is a game meant to be enjoyed, and I'm certainly not the only one playing it. I know quite a few of us are frustrated that we can't enjoy it much in our present state, nor anytime in the foreseeable future. Nobody's going to play a game if they dread pressing the 'log in' button.

So, thoughts? And this is open to everyone, as always.
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:10 pm

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I feel the same way. I have been asked by a couple kins to join them and im sorry to say, I might be leaving for one of them in the next few days. I offered over a week ago to help with recruiting and i was shoot down by the leaders that be, and im not even an Officer, so you dont want my help? oh well. You want a kin to live you recruit, does not matter how, you just do it. I have tried to get things going on for the kin thats here for the past 2 weeks with building traits, rep, rank or anything and only the same 2 members join me each time. I have evan asked when we have members on and no one wants to do anything.

So, now its up to the leadership.

Rentor
Hi

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:35 pm

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Stracius
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Though it's true we do need quantity at the moment, we can't sacrifice that for quality of people we recruit. I can't speak for the previous people that have held the leadership position, but I've been mulling over your proposition as well.

The thing is, we're not looking to build the biggest or most successful guild. We're looking to make one that we can have fun in that also represents what we are as SSX members in all aspects. Truthfully, I've been waiting to see if you understood that before proposing to give you the responsibility of recruitment.

I don't doubt your abilities, you seem to know your stuff. I'm just trying to figure out how you go about doing them :) As for officer status: Another reason I've been holding off is I prefer the approach of the fewer the better, though convenience may beg otherwise.

If you believe these are good people that would match our standards of friendship and fair play, then I'd be happy to see you recruit them. Of course, saying that may be too little too late. I suppose I just don't want to be the guy that allowed a bunch of rif-raf in and pisseded off everyone else, lol. Regardless, I welcome all help any member is willing to give. I just have to take care that said help is not recklessly done.
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

Re: Our current sustainability

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:50 pm

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El Oso
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Stracius wrote:Well, it needs to be addressed.


While I haven't been playing much lately (either Lotro OR Aoc, or ANY video games, actually) I am in for the long haul. Whenever I *do* log in, I hope it's to SSX. :)

I agree that there aren't many kinless 50's around & it takes low level characters to attract more low level characters- without alt runs, we're kind of stuck with the present roster. Hopefully an influx of new players will coincide with the expansion & we'll pick up new people while running alts (new classes!)


I find it disheartening that another kin approached some of our members about defecting. How tacky. Who would want to be THAT guild?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:01 pm

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El Oso
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Stracius wrote:As for officer status


My $.02-
You don't need to be an officer to "recruit"

Basically what we've done in the past is to run with pugs/other people & build up a friendship first, and extend an invitation to the fold afterwards- there will eventually be an officer on and if the person is cool I can't see that they'd have a problem sending mail to an officer or or posting on the forums for an invite. I agree that even though numbers are low we're not just looking for warm bodies.

With that said, since I haven't been on much lately I'll happily step down as officer. There's no sense in having inactive officers! I don't think I can resign, want to demote me Al? :D

Re: Our current sustainability

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:23 pm

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Faernath wrote:I find it disheartening that another kin approached some of our members about defecting. How tacky. Who would want to be THAT guild?


It's all about perspective, really. I think that if I were to come across a guild that was struggling, and its members weren't able to enjoy themselves, I would fully offer to take them into ours (providing they were people I actually *wanted* to invite).

Selfishly stealing players, or selflessly helping players out. It can appear either way, and is all determined by their motive - something not easily discerned.

Faernath wrote:With that said, since I haven't been on much lately I'll happily step down as officer. There's no sense in having inactive officers! I don't think I can resign, want to demote me Al?


Request granted... with prejudice :nervous: :D
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

Re: Our current sustainability

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:33 pm

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El Oso
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Stracius wrote:It's all about perspective, really. I think that if I were to come across a guild that was struggling, and its members weren't able to enjoy themselves, I would fully offer to take them into ours (providing they were people I actually *wanted* to invite).

Selfishly stealing players, or selflessly helping players out. It can appear either way, and is all determined by their motive - something not easily discerned.


By the same token, by knowing that the guild is struggling, they are further harming it by trying to poach players who could contribute to fixing it! :)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:36 pm

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The members that are on do have low lvl Alts, I work on Dori and grp all the time with kinless members. My hours are late or early and yes, there are no officers on. Im not asking to be one at this point, cause i dont know where ill be in a week.

i dont feel someone should have to goto a website and sign up and fill out an app to join a ingame kin/guild for any game. You can tell by grouping with ppl how they are to a point, you can find out where they live and or age.

All kins need members from all over the world, You will have members on in the USA in the AM so when others in other parts of the world are on, they have ppl to grp with.

As for other Kins asking to join them I said that wrong. When asked about my own kin and saying how many have left for other games, Im asked if i have 'Thought' about leaving, thats when I am told 'If' I do, you are welcome here. I was not told, goto our website and fill out an app to join us.

Rentor
Hi

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:27 pm

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You might've also noticed that I'm pretty much on at all hours ;) . Quite a few occasions have passed that I've said hello to you at 11pm and at 6 am, but yet to receive any requests to send a kin invite. I'm not faulting you for that, but simply pointing out that opportunity has existed more than you may have realized. As Faer said:

Faernath wrote:I can't see that they'd have a problem sending mail to an officer or or posting on the forums for an invite.


Even if an officer isn't online when you are, one may be on at the same time as the person who wants to join. I've seen Eli come on early, stick around in the afternoons, and play in the evenings. Same with Mari. I'm not seeing an obstacle here, just an inconvenience. If I'm wrong, tell me why.

We're also given our own discretion on recruiting policy for the group. While it's encouraged to have people sign up on the forums to join, it's not a necessity. I've yet to tell a person, "Would you like to join? If so, go to our website and fill out an app to join us". You might remember as much from when you initially joined us - you were asking me about joining and I requested an officer to send you an invite into the kin. No hoop jumping, if I recall. In fact, I don't recall seeing anyone - officers or leaders - post anything stating that we do this. I'm not sure where you got this idea that this was required, but you do seem to be quite negative about it.

I also like to have them become aware of the forums on their own accord, and encourage all members to become active in the community as that is what we eventually boil down into - a community. We have always welcomed people from any part of the world, regardless of race, religion, nationality, or timezone. A quick look at the SSX's memberlist will reveal as much.

Oz is rarely on (which may require a new officer to replace), same goes for Faernath, Ardith, and Ori. Eli and Mari are quite attached to their main lvl 50 characters. Cyowen's alts are all fairly high level, and I rarely see Nymia play her alt... though the both of them are so quiet I can't picture them as active recruiters :lol: . That leaves you and me really, and I've been trying too - though I will admit I'm prone to soloing or grouping with specific people.

So as I said, recruiting will be difficult, and it will take a while to rebuild into anything sustainable. My main concern is whether or not anyone has the patience or will to do so. I await further comment.
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:45 pm

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Before I joined I did spend time with some of the members. All know I came because of Avion, who has since left the kin. I did goto the website and register before i was in the Kin, I even had a problem with posting so i had to talk to Tuvok.

I have told ppl to send fear emails to join when i grouped with them, I have told ppl to goto the website and check things out. You can't make ppl do these things, you can only ask.
Last edited by Rentor on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:47 pm

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Syro
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Recruiting has been a non-issue in the past because frankly... it was not my focus. My focus has been and will always be relationships.

I am sure no one will remember the days that there were only two of us playing constantly... YES! Only 2 of us :) Syro and Wulfy. We would shout to each other in kin as if we were shouting to the world. The only sound heard was the echo of our voices.

In the early days, Syro lived on PUGs. No one was ready for the group instances from the kin, so he would venture on his own and it always meant a PUG. As a kin, we really struggled to complete instances but we had a blast and we kept going back until we got it!

At the end of the day, it is a game. We spend our real world dollars and time to have fun. If it's not fun, then I would encourage folks to go find a kin that they think they would enjoy. SSX is much more than a guild or an identity for a particular game... it is a community of folks who share a few common values and like each other's company. We are friends.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:04 pm

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Rentor wrote:You can't make ppl do these things, you can only ask.


True enough. Also a reason why I was considering Eli's proposal of making you an officer, as I've already mentioned. Let me know what you decide. Hopefully the other players will do the same. I'm grateful that you've already replied so quickly :)
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:12 pm

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I think it is important to make clear that shooting down the notion of recruitment or placing heavy restrictions on how it should happen is something that no-one wants. Recruitment is important for every MMO group, but there is a difference between blind recruitment to up numbers and actually recruiting because people would fit in with the SSX.

A point of interest for you all may be this thread, where a similar discussion was undertaken for the FFXI group some time ago - it may be useful. http://www.shatteredstar.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3628


Also, I have a feeling that your 'shot down by the leaders that be' comment was directed at my post in the other thread Rentor (and excuse me if I am wrong), so I will try to clarify.

It was never my intention to send out a "Don't recruit. It's not acceptable." message, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply keen to see recruiting being done for the right reasons, and in a way that is beneficial to the community as a whole.

Forcing potential recruits to come here and fill out forms to even be considered for membership is not what I was suggesting. Both of our WoW groups have used that method, but that method is how they wanted recruitment handled, and to some extent is necessary for such large groups so that they can keep track of applicants. That doesn't mean it is the right approach for every group. It is up to you as a group to decide what approach is best for you.

But having said that, I do feel that the website is a very important part of recruitment. To me, we are a community of friends first and foremost and individual groups second, and because of that the website is incredibly important in bringing together that community and allowing/encouraging interaction between groups and members. Recruiting people who have no intention of ever visiting the website/forum or joining in with the wider community is, in my mind, flying against what we are. It is impossible for us to maintain that notion of community if the people we are bringing in don't care about it.

At the end of the day this is your group, and I am glad to see you openly discussing matters such as this, and the final decision is yours. I simply encourage you to remember that the group, and indeed the SSX as a whole, was built on the notions of Friendship and Community. Those should be important considerations when considering any recruit, in my opinion anyway, rather than "Will this person bolster activity?".

My two cents.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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Re: Our current sustainability

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:51 pm

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El Oso
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Stracius wrote:I'd also just like to point out that I'm in no way endorsing an abandonment of who we are, much less the kin. I pretty much consider myself in for the long haul, good or bad. However it is a game meant to be enjoyed, and I'm certainly not the only one playing it. I know quite a few of us are frustrated that we can't enjoy it much in our present state, nor anytime in the foreseeable future. Nobody's going to play a game if they dread pressing the 'log in' button.


From my perspective, SSX as a kin has never been about grouping together or providing the means to go on runs- while it has happened, and certainly with more frequency than now, it's never been a constant. In fact, in my experience, even in the sappy star days when we were doing book runs & there were lots of active members it was still a lot of folks out soloing or pugging or farming... Most of the time if we were in group it was just for the voice chat while we were off doing our respective things... We still didn't have the numbers for 12-man or even 6-man runs a lot of the time. And along those lines, little has changed except for there being less people to talk to in kin chat now...
Last edited by El Oso on Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:52 pm

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I am not saying we should just goto any noob and offer an invite, nor make a post in the chat saying we are recruiting. As i said before I do work on an ALT so i am with kinless gamers. That's how i always built up my guild in swg, say you get 30 ppl and only 15 of those stick around, that's 15 more then before. Half would be nice but i think it might end up lower.

Im back to work tonight so my replies will not be so fast, more like 24 hours from now.

Rentor
Hi

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:28 pm

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Rentor wrote:I am not saying we should just goto any noob and offer an invite, nor make a post in the chat saying we are recruiting. As i said before I do work on an ALT so i am with kinless gamers. That's how i always built up my guild in swg, say you get 30 ppl and only 15 of those stick around, that's 15 more then before. Half would be nice but i think it might end up lower.


I can see that there's a difference of opinion but I think we need clarification in order to understand where everyone is coming from:

I understand that you want officer status because you feel you need to personally invite people, but while I was leading I hadn't gotten any offline messages or tells from prospective members or yourself that a person wanted an invite. (Except for Ryanmeier, who I was online at the time for.) Was it a common occurance that you invited people but an officer wasn't online to make it official? Or did you not extend invites because you're not an officer?

I said while I was leading the kin that I don't feel someone needs to be an officer to recruit folks, and I think Al feels the same way! I think everyone regardless of title, when running with people, should get to know them and introduce them to other SSXers and then decide if the invitee and SSX would mesh well. Randomly inviting 30 people without building up some degree of a relationship first is essentially the same as advertising open invites in chat. IMO, our goal should be to invite people who will all stick around! As far as inviting noobs goes, I'm cool with teaching peeps about the game, it really comes down to personality and not leetness.

Meeting someone in a pug and inviting them without getting to know them beyond A/S/L seems arbitrary to me...




The old thread that Anubis linked confirms that what we've been doing holds to long-standing SSX ideals; I'm not sure if this was conscious or not- I think it's just the result of everyone being like-minded!

If SSX-Lotro decides to be more open with it's recruitment, as a member I'll roll with it. And I do realize I'm being vocal about this when I'm only spending a few hours a week in-game, but I still say quality & not quantity. :)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:40 pm

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This is a good discussion - lots of simultaneous conversations happening from several perspectives. I will focus on a few points with the understanding that I am currently an outsider to the situation. Thanks to everyone for voicing their opinions. Rentor, your thoughts matter to us. Thanks!

In regards to officer status, I was fairly loose with our promotions. I wanted all of our dedicated folks to feel a vested interest in the kin, and I wanted to make sure we had an officer on all the time. Ed (Inquisitor / Arrack) and I even discussed the possibility of making everyone an officer at one point. In some cases, I simply wanted to recognize a persons efforts for being available to assist folks whenever asked so I promoted them. My real goal was to see everyone promoted to an officer, so I was constantly watching for a reason to promote peeps.

On the current SSX player base, if the current LoTRO peeps want to recruit then go for it. When I come back to LoTRO, I will be looking for the peeps I know regardless of kin affiliation. I will be SSX because that is who I am even if its just Wulfy and Syro! I will play with the peeps I know and the new friends that I might make. I am not really worried about membership in SSX, but I can appreciate the desire to be a part of something and have folks from the same kin for grouping. I personally wanted all-kin groups for our CD runs and such.

To Faernaths point about grouping, I had a nightly / daily mission for whichever toon I was playing. Sometimes, I could get folks from the guild to join me but often times they would come around much later like after I had already done it. I would advertise in /ooc that I was going to do something and welcomed folks to join me. Most of the time MOST of the time we did not have a healer or tank. So we went and did it! Syro and Faernath did a lot of stuff together early (just the two of them) in Angmar. It was a hunter and captain team with totally confounded, non-1337 gear. I believe we died several times, but it was darn fun. Grouping was not essential to the game for us, but we grouped a lot to simply talk on the mic while we solod.

Keeping talking folks. Good stuff!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:43 pm

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El Oso
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Syro wrote:No one was ready for the group instances from the kin, so he would venture on his own and it always meant a PUG.


Ahem.

:shake: :rolleyes: :p

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:52 pm

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Syro
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Faernath wrote:
Syro wrote:No one was ready for the group instances from the kin, so he would venture on his own and it always meant a PUG.


Ahem.

:shake: :rolleyes: :p


Haha! True. For a whole month, Syro was exploring the CD instances.... alone. I waited 2 months with him to finish the original book 8 chapter 5. Syro finally completed it with a PUG. ;) awwwwwww Book 8 Chapter 5!!! Finish all of CD and then complete the chapter! weeeeeeeeeee!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:56 pm

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LOL. I forgot how hard it was to evn get to the CD instance to do 8-5! We had to start each group at Gath then fight / run all the way there!!! Sometimes, a CD group fizzled before we got to the instance simply because we wiped twice while trying to get there. Ya... Syro was making those early runs in PUGs. :)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:00 pm

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El Oso
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Syro wrote:LOL. I forgot how hard it was to evn get to the CD instance to do 8-5!


Except when you had a captain willing to stand in CD waiting for a crew to be assembled! :thumb:

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:19 am

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As much as I have been inactive in-game for the past few weeks, I have tried to log in here and there to do some small things, and make sure Big O doesn't get too lonely :) From what I have seen, much of the LoTRO community abroad is experiencing the same trends that we are currently. I have seen a decreased number of people in general in-game running around, and PUG's seem to be increasingly difficult to come by.

That being said, since my joining SSX, quality people has always seemed to be at the forefront of our kin. I have always greatly enjoyed grouping up, even if it was just to chat while grinding traits or crafting. As disappointing as it is to log on and not see numerous kin members on, I would rather that than be in a kin of 100+ where no one really knows me. Call it the small town mentality, I like it :thumb:

I plan on working on my alt Barwyn a bit here and there over the summer, and forsee grouping with PUG's or other gamers at the same level, which will hopefully lead to some new friendships and possibly a new kin member or two! As for across the board, I think the same from other members is our most valid option at this point. As we draw closer to the release of Mines, I do feel we will again see increased numbers in the kin, both returning old members and newcomers!

I, like Faer and others, purchased a lifetime (even though my measley graduate assistant stipend barely covers rent :smack: ) but I feel it was a worth while purchase because of the kin members. I would love to see increased numbers as well Rentor, and I believe all of us feel the same in terms of quality of members. I am going to be optimistic in saying I don't believe SSX is anywhere near dead, although Big O may peck a fight with my AoC character if I spend too much time with him. We'll see! :sweat:
"Forecast for tomorrow: A few sprinkles of genius with a chance of DOOM!"

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:38 pm

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If you make some one an officer, you can always take it away of they screw up ;)

I kinda randomly made people officers, with (somewhat) stern warnings about recruitment and forums. Make sure people knew what they were getting into.

Doesn't hurt to invite people for trials or what not or make people officers as a trial, so long as everyone knows thats what it is. None of this is set in stone, except "Friendship."

Do everything with open eyes and minds. But, be mindful somethings may not work and don't take it personally ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:49 pm

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Syro
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Faernath wrote:
Syro wrote:LOL. I forgot how hard it was to evn get to the CD instance to do 8-5!


Except when you had a captain willing to stand in CD waiting for a crew to be assembled! :thumb:


True! Faernath stood there so NOBLE while the rest of us tried to get our acts together. :lol: :lol: :lol:

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:53 pm

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Syro
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Back to topic...

The current player base should feel free to do as they like with the in-game kin. Gotta be fun or why do it?

We are experiencing the same slow-down in EQ2 right now, so I am sympathetic to your current situation.


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