Person leaving a Group Question?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:02 pm

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Isileth wrote:Well from the new information about his leaving I have come to a different conclusion. It sounds as though he didnt quit because he hated the guild or from an argument of some kind but that he wanted more from the game that he couldnt get in ssx.
Not really, SSX WoW EU have proven that they can progress just as far as other guilds at endgame, just a little slower. Riki's leaving thread clearly shows that he left to get at this higher level content. He WOULD have got access to it if he had stayed SSX, it would just take a little longer. He was willing to cast aside the group just to get there a bit quicker, which imo is unacceptable.

KJ is perfectly right in asking
What do we do with a member who may, or may not, be part of several groups, and has left the SSX group in a particular game becuase our group was not good enough for them?
That is what needs to be answered, and obvious answer to me is remove them from other groups. If they judge we arent good enough for them in one game, they dont be a part of this community at all. Otherwise what message are we sending? That its acceptable to sit there and say 'Oh, Im far too good to be a part of the SSX in this game, but you're doing pretty well in that game. I'll go with that group.' Sending that sort of message doesn't seem right to me.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 5:24 pm

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What does it hurt?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:20 pm

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And then we have to ask ourselves this. Patience is a virtue, but what do we do with those who do not possess it? A complicated topic indeed, I know my thoughts have swayed back and forth with the many good arguments.

I think this touches on something I've often thought about. Say I've been playing a game for a while and form an SSX group presence (be it a guild or whatnot). Another current SSX member picks up the game and plays it as well, but decides not to join the group already there as they wish to play it their own way. Take EVE Online for example. One member wants to play a pirate/mercenary, another wants to play an industrialist, and each join different guilds. Is this something we would kick a member for?

I believe the answer is no, and just from what I've read so far, Riki's situation seems very similiar. I'd need more info. (as Quiz was saying) before I made any concrete decision, but so far I'm not seeing a problem. I'm not seeing that he left in a negative light (other than leaving a number of people feeling betrayed for one reason or another), and I am seeing that he continued to help the group though he wasn't a part of it. He also wishes to continue being a member.

So other than this feeling of betrayal (which I can understand), is there any other problem? If not, then is there no way to rectify this first one? I mean on both sides.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:54 am

Rikimaru
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Thought i should reply to this post as some only recently told me about this argument.

At no point did i say or leave because i thought anyone in the ssx was below me or i thought my self better than them.

I didn't leave because i never got invited to a raid.

Since when has someone had to lose all there friends in one guild if the move to another?

It amuses me at how some of you can take things so personaly and just have so much hate against someone without getting all the facts esspecialy when i thought alot of you were my friends, not mentioning other times this happened.

I thought i left on good terms i said i would always help out where i could i never had any arguments with anyone as far as i remember and maybe my leaving was a bit sudden

I didn't leave for loot and i thank the people who actually understand the reasons i left such as dodo, britt, qd and all the others i have not mentioned.

I hope my leaving had no deep effect on the guild and doubt it did with the amount of good rogues are there :), you guys know who you are.

It is true i am impatient and i was always more raid orientated and sometimes thought things were a little slack. I know ssx was not a raiding guild and i enjoyed this being with friendly people but when an opportunity opened up for me to go where others also thought the same way i did and it did feel nice to actually be wanted and asked to become part of that i just could not let it go.

TBH do as you people feel in the end, its your choice i hold no grudge against any of you.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:18 am

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Thought i should reply to this post as some only recently told me about this argument.
The only thing that concerns me is you had to be told about this, rather than participating in the community and knowing about it. Nothing we do here is secret or hidden, especially for members.

That's my biggest, angriest gripe, is too damn few MMO group members bother to find out about the group they joined, and participate. If you had considered yourself still a member, you would have poked your nose in here sooner. Stuff that happens in this Member forum matters, if only to us.

So while you left on good terms, where does that actually leave you? What do you think you status is/was?

Are you here or not? You can see even some of us who don't know you are defending your right to be here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:42 am

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wat would u do, play ur monthly fees to play for the sake of playing or to play for the sake of being the best?
Neither.
The main thing that has kept me resubbing to the game is the SSX group, i couldn't give a shit about being the best, or being one of the first guilds to kill a mob i also don't care much for the amount of raids you guys do which is why i've had so many raid breaks. Ofc its cool when you're the first to down a boss and break a record or whatever but i'd never leave a group to achieve it and i'd never leave a group for the same reasons Riki did either (or others that have done it in the past).
EDIT: I kind of did the same thing when I bought Guild Wars, so I sympathize with Riki. I decided not to join SSX in favor of my Tribes/BF2 clan, who are very competitive in PvP. I did this not because I don't value SSX, but because I think PvP is fun.
You didn't join the GW group to later leave them when a better offer came along, you just didn't join the group in the first place. They are both very different.


Read all the replies in the thread, i can see where some people are coming from and i also expected some rl friends to defend, though my opinion has not changed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 am

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Recently, there was quite a witch-hunt on epic greedy ppl.
however, it was never actually defined what means epic
greedy. so here it is

a person who joins SSX just for his benefit in achieving
his goal to improve in play style gear and experience, but
is less interested in the community than in his personal goals.
or as KJ says it "game is more important than the people you
play with".

so just that a person is not interested in epic loot (probably
he has anyway now everything he wants) does not mean that
for me he can not fall into the class of "epic greedy". however,
in the end it is the not me to judge about riki, but the ppl which
are playing with him.

So long as his departure only affected him, and
he's behaving in WC3, it's up to the WC3 folks if they want
him to play.


and as a question for QD: it seems you are a bit measuring
with two different units: against some ppl which are leaving
SSX you are extremely harsh, but if the ppl involved are
"one of the best" you seem to suddenly change and everything
is tolerated?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:35 pm

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firedancer wrote:
and as a question for QD: it seems you are a bit measuring
with two different units: against some ppl which are leaving
SSX you are extremely harsh, but if the ppl involved are
"one of the best" you seem to suddenly change and everything
is tolerated?
It basically depends on whether they leave under false and hypocritical pretenses or not, it also depends on what terms they depart on.


Certain people seem to like dramatically lying on their way out the door, and that will never be something I will tollerate.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:47 pm

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My question(s) stand, why are we having the discussion if the person in questions doesn't consider themselves a member.

It's great to navel gaze on the what if's, but we will never have a "rule" that we can all agree on, too many variables. It will have to be case by case. That's where we keep ending up when we ask this question.

This specific case though, is now muddled by Riki's own response. I'd like an answer, from Riki, before anyone pontificates further. There's alot of "foot in mouth" potential here, lets avoid that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:22 pm

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Maybe it's worth pointing out that in WC3 there are no epics, or raids, or server firsts. There are ladders, but we will most likley never get involved in those. So, if Riki is concerned more with the game than the people he plays with, why join us in WC3?
"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:51 pm

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I'd like an answer, from Riki, before anyone pontificates further. There's alot of "foot in mouth" potential here, lets avoid that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:26 pm

Rikimaru
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of course i would have like to have stayed in ssx but from some of these posts i no longer feel welcome any more.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:10 pm

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And just as many are in favor of it. Because some people say they don;t like the idea doesn't make it law. That's why we have this forum. We discuss things. Sometimes those things are unpleasant.

Ultimately its up to you, and the people who you play with. I can't and won't prevent a group from having a certain member join their ranks (with a couple notable exceptions) if they want to play with that person. I may not like it, but I have to trust the group leaders. I may get to say I told you so, but that's a different story.

Some folks are hurt by you leaving them, that's a trust issue you need to work out with them. You feel hurt by some people saying you shouldn't, they feel hurt by you leaving them. It goes both ways.

I am always on IRC (well, almost always).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:16 pm

Rikimaru
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well that is true enough and i choose to stay if that would be ok with everyone else :)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:56 pm

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i have to be with riki here

my old school moto was "aim high", most in ssx hold to this value, others dont. some go for it and complete things, others just muddle thro.

any true friend wouldnt hold a friend back from accomplishing their goals.

there seems to be a fair few people that have taken this personaly and i would like to know y?

wat has left this bitter taste in their mouths that they feel they have to speak out against somebody and tell half-thruths and such?

do they feel that 1 person leaving, 1 that helps hold hands in raids, will hold them back? or do they just h8 them for choosing to do something else with their talents.

it brings joy to me when people see thro the murk and mistrust and wish people luck on their endevours, but to see people being soooo rude and 1 sided greefs me. this is not the way of the ssx.

i could rant for ever on such subjects, so i'll stop.

just poke me on irc and cross ur fingers that i'm about :smack:
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:37 pm

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Inquisitor wrote:Because some people say they don;t like the idea doesn't make it law.
Also because some people say the idea's not liked, does not mean the person (in this case, you) is disliked.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:47 am

timmi
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wow my brain hurts.
this is a pretty windy thread and really all i can see is a number of people saying:
riki was just in ssx for the phat loot and cos he left to get more phatloot (or so u say) (which apparently he would have gotten anyway because were just slower) and even though hes still friends with ssx and wants to play with us in wc3 we should just dump him from the ssx after he has spent along time with us and joind when ssx formed or somewhere close to that. he was also a classleader and put lots of effort into handling those sneaky rogues ;p
And... some other people saying his decision to leave is valid as its just a playstlyle thing in _///1///_ game and has nothing to do with loot. As far as i can see drama can only do 3 more bosses than us out of a total of about 50 (and some of our kills on those bosses are much smoother too). its not really much loot is it? Riki has left behind a lot of dkp and didnt spend any of it on his way out which sum1 planning to leaveif he didnt like the guild would do. its just about the playstyle and (i cant think of the word but something along the lines of concise) we are a big guild and sometimes things take a long time to happen. We're not a raiding focused guild sometimes or runs take some time and there are many breaks. its not about the friendship in drama its about being number1 and working hard and living on the edge.

lol ive written alot of crap without a conclusion.

ok onto wc3 its more like a group of friends playing football in the streets were just a group of friends playing games that have no meaning there just fun. were not in a any leages and were not trying to be amazing at the game but winning a dota now and then is nice (although me shouting at people when we lose isnt ;p)

and to answer u quiz of why riki didnt know this was happening is he prolly just reads the ssx wow forums just like me (although i read the wc3 1 now)i find it hard to talk to people who i havent chatted to and since i hate typing that generally means on vent so i dont venture into forums much.

ok so i think riki should stay ssx and forcing him to leave would be pointless as it would have no impact on most of the people who are saying he should go.

rant over

(i bet this never get on the forum cos my internet is going to go down as i hit the post button)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:52 am

timmi
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hmm there was 2 pages of this post, didnt read the second page of this post

anyway i am going to ask the same question as britt

what got your feathers so ruffled?
why so angry, come play some cs or wc3 with me and drink a few mind altering substances

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:39 am

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and to answer u quiz of why riki didnt know this was happening is he prolly just reads the ssx wow forums just like me (although i read the wc3 1 now)i find it hard to talk to people who i havent chatted to and since i hate typing that generally means on vent so i dont venture into forums much.
That's a whole lot of the problem right there.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:42 am

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Nobody's angry, at least i'm not and not meaning to sound as if i am either. Just a discussion which is what the members forum is here for. :)

Also i don't particularly see it as all about loot, i just believe Riki's reasons for leaving were wrong thats all. If a person decided from day 1 that they wanted to go it the way they wanted to which was different to the group in that game, therefore decided not to join the group in the first place i would understand it a little better but Riki was in the group for around 9months before he left.
I'd never expect someone like Quiz, KJ, BD, QD for example to ever choose to improve upon themselves and their character in a game over the particular SSX group they were part of and i know for a fact i'd never do such a thing myself. QD actually had ample oppertunities to leave the WoW group and join Synergy back on Bladefist i believe, i never expected him to do so and i would have been v shocked indeed if he had. Its just something i wouldn't expect people like the ones listed above to go and do. Just because they have been around for a lot longer than the majority of us shouldn't make a difference tbh which is why i tend to expect that kinda attitude from others as well i guess..

Everyone is always gonna have a difference in opinion on something like this which is why we should never have a rule on it and i believe discussing it openly is usually the best thing to do. Also just because i've been honest and said that i don't agree with Riki's reason for leaving doesn't mean to say i'm angry about it, that i have any grudges or have anything personally against Riki, sorry if any of my posts have come accross that way as i certanly didn't mean them to. I've always been one for speaking what i think, rather than keeping my thoughts to myself which ain't gonna solve anything whatever its about. Whether people agree with my opinions or not thats all they are, opinions. :)
he prolly just reads the ssx wow forums just like me (although i read the wc3 1 now)i find it hard to talk to people who i havent chatted to
There is sooo much more to the SSX than Warcraft, its kinda troubling that a lot of people still don't come out of their group forums unless they are pointed directly to something outside of it. Venture out of the WoW forum once in a while and start contributing to topics in general/members, even our irc channel. It works both ways and only you can change that. You'll soon get to know people by doing so dude. ;)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:55 pm

timmi
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wow my internet spelling and grammar is amazing. Sorry if your eyes bled after my post i was pretty doped on cough meds and i was very tired.
ms i see what you are saying but i thingk the situtation with qd is different he has volunteered himself to be a high up in the guild and he likes it up there in the windy hights alot of people count on qd. (having said that ive been told he has left the guild before cos just like the rest of us he is a moody bugger). Anyway riki was a co class leader and didint really have any responsibility outside of raids. So there was no far reaching repercussions outside of a raidwhen he left.

ok this is not a 'this is a way it should be thread' and every1 has there opinions and i dont expect any1 to change their minds cos of me. Ive said my part and im happy to let it lie and get on with chilling out ;p.

peace out

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:47 am

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muffin
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Hummm, an intreaguing topic.

I think a lot of rikkis thoughts about the guild are expressed in the title of his actual leaving thread. "not goodbye, but see ya round". He's not a malicious guy by nature and bar Tim hes one of the most chilled out people i'v ever got to know. So i cant ever see him wanting to hurt anyones feelings.

I think the football analogy was a good one. He was asked to join another guild who happened to suit his play stile a bit more. He still talks to the ssx guys, he still helps me and a lot of others out in game with a lot of things. the only thing that has really changed is that he can no longer read the in game guild chat and doesnt come along on raids anymore (bar the odd occasion).

Its not a personal insult to anyone that rikki left for another guild... he's not saying "I'm better than you...oooh look i was asked to join drama and you werent, nur ni nur ni nur nur." an opertunity arose and he took it. simple as.

From what iv heared on my little trips into the wc3 and dota channels on vent, they simply play dota to have a laugh, relax and mess about together. why should you ban a man from having fun with his friends just because he was asked by some other of his friends to join there guild? He's not hurting anyone is he?

Anyhoo, just my little oppinion. I don't mean to offend anyone if i did.

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raids

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:31 pm

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[/quote]He values personal gain through raids, that much seems plain to me, and rather than helping the community

i think theres a lot of people who think like this

when theres no raids there,s hardly anyone, maybe half the amount that would be on for raids.

i guess that raiding is becoming more important than community and guild.

its the way ssx is going in wow.
I am of the opinion that my life belongs to this community, and as long as I live it is my privilege to do for it whatever I can.

Re: raids

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:20 am

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QuantumDelta
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Riccko wrote:He values personal gain through raids, that much seems plain to me, and rather than helping the community

i think theres a lot of people who think like this

when theres no raids there,s hardly anyone, maybe half the amount that would be on for raids.

i guess that raiding is becoming more important than community and guild.

its the way ssx is going in wow.
If there were no raids, I wouldn't play WoW.
That doesn't mean WoW > SSX.
That merely means the Raids are all there is for me to do in WoW.

The only people who ever complain otherwise in this, are the people who haven't extinguished all of the rest of the content in the game.

This leaves:
World PvP (lol).
Raid PvP.
Random BG PvP (lol).
Organised events (don't have time for - too busy organising the guild, someone else will have to do it; never really gets done).
Crap instances I've done into the triple digits and really have no reason to visit other than to trivialise that instance for another player.
Idle in Stormwind.

Sooooooooooo........ It's really no surprise that after one years playing, most of the guild is swaying towards raiding - at different paces.
They all end up there, however.
And when they get bored of raiding, they either leave the game, or go PvP.
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I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:32 pm

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I don't know the guy, but I do know the game.

In WoW, the ONLY time there is competition is in PvP, and even that, if you are on the same side, is arguable.

This is most definitely not a competition isssue.

Further, if the SSX community cannot support a player's in game goals, they should not be beholden to the SSX provided that they do not interfere/compete with the SSX.

I play WoW and have been playing for over a year. I do not play WoW with the SSX. I suppose I should be banned from playing with the SSX in other games though. Despite the fact I have played with different members of the SSX for close to 9 years.

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