Delayed Common Sense

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Change the name or leave it?

Poll ended at Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:29 pm

Yes (change the name)
12
40%
No (don't change the name)
18
60%
 
Total votes: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:36 pm

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Fenavian
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I guess I don't see why now that all of the sudden the name is a problem. The word eXile will have different meanings to all of us and it doesn't change where we came from and why we are here. Regardless if the SSC went to pieces when we left we still would be eXiles. And while technically you all would of been welcomed back with open arms (sort of), and technically this wasn't an eXile per say, this is the name we all agreed on when we started. Besides, look at it like a self imposed eXile or something. :) And besides, as Padishar pointed out, those of us in MMO guilds sure as hell won't be changing our names due to the time and coding issues involved. All in all there is no real reason to go for a name change at this time. The reasons we are here are still the same, and they aren't going to change. Yes it's true even if we changed our name the reasons still would be the same, but I like our name. It's got history and it rolls off the tongue nicely. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:02 am

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For the record, its not "all of a sudden" :)

BD and others have quietly (and sometimes not so) asked many times over the last several years.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:59 pm

Lilleth
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I agree with Pad and Mel (Magdelena).

I joined SSX about three years ago, in WoW. I've always been in "eXile" :D (I also think the small *e*, big *X* thing is Supercool. Rock on).

Trying to change our guild tag in WoW would be a logistical nightmare...so as much as we are part of the Shattered Star___? community as a whole, we'd probably end up staying with the SSX tag, at least in that game.

I like Mel's point about being different from the hard-core gamer guilds...we certainly are "eXiles" in that sense!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:03 pm

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Idaten
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I don't mind either way.

For me, if some members are uncomfortable with the current name that's enough reason to change it. Sorry Pad ;)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:49 pm

Vince Glortho
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I prefer SSX, but in the end, the name is not the reason I am here.

Did anyone suggest Shattered Star Alliance? SSA
or Alliance of the Shattered Star, which would wear well for BD.

;)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:17 pm

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undrin
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I am siding with Mags and others on this. While I do not belive changing the name would kill us. It has taken on a meaning to me. As she explained above, I to feel that eXiles fits us well do to our being very different than ANY guild I have ran with in the MMOs I have played. This difference has stopped a few guild alliances due to us standing our ground. Changing the name would not kill me but it would be a little sad. I would also like to add I was not around when the split happned and perhaps that is why it has a different meaning for me.


OMG we so need spell check on here. :smack:
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:37 pm

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undrin wrote:Changing the name would not kill me but it would be a little sad. I would also like to add I was not around when the split happned and perhaps that is why it has a different meaning for me.

As I suspect it may for quite a few of our members. I was hoping people would bring up their own viewpoint on what it means to them. Would be happy to hear from anyone else on this specific subject. That's pretty much what it comes down to, as I'm really more concerned as how the name comes across to the more recent members (already have a good idea on the viewpoints of the geriatrics :lol: ). It'd be good to know if and how our name might affect potential applicants/joinees, or even just current players - whether there are any negative consequences to be drawn from it. Experiences and thoughts welcome :)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:38 pm

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undrin
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I would like to hear more about the Sex sounding part of this issue. As those I have talked to on the phone about it have not run into this in the US at least.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:48 am

JonisRahl
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We would not bow or break to the demands of our equals that grew power hungery so we left our group behind exiling oursleves . The SSX became that new start for all of us to form back together and to try to rekindle what we truely stand for and the belief we have in one another the equality, the comradary. The SSC lives on in my heart and memory but the SSX is where I belong

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:29 am

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Ozany
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I joined the SSC right before the initial split in the EvE-Online MMORPG. I did not know that many people at that point and it was really my first experience with the whole online gaming community. I stayed with the SSC for reasons too lengthy to go into, but found a new home here in the SSX when they finally strayed too far from the reasons I joined them in the first place.

I personally like the SSX name as well, but would also accept any name change that is decided upon in here because as a wise man once said something about "A rose by any other name .........."

As far as the Eve community, the time and effort required to change the corporation over to a new name with player owned structures and facility management would potentially be many hours so I would suggest we maintain the name the same for reasons similar to those posted f or WoW (though we do not have that large of a group)

As for other potential names, we could keep the same tag =SSX= and change the name to the Shattered Star eXperience and explain the meaning of the star referrence and without having to go into the "Why are you the exiled" as I have had to explain on numerous occassions in public chat channels in game.

Thats my 2c, but with inflation and the current recession its more like $5 USD :shake:

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:55 am

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Not being very active, and not really playing any MMO's at the moment I guess I shouldn't really mind what we decide to call ourselves, but for some reason I do.

Those who know me will remember that myself and Messiah spent a lot of time and effort trying to resolve the issues, and deal with the ego's that led to the split.

Unfortunately we were unsuccessful, but lets not get a holier than thou attitude here. It wasn't just the fault of the so called axis of EVEL, some of those that came here were also at fault.

For me the day that the split happened, the SSC died, and for me it will never live again. Sure we can change our name back to the SSC, but it will never be the SSC that I loved, that SSC will never exist again.

Fortunately for all of us, something new and better was created, and it's time to forget the

"TEN HOUR LONG STORY OF "WHY EXILES" THAT DOESN'T MATTER IN THE SLIGHTEST TO ANYONE, EVER, YET IT COMES INTO PLAY WHEN THE PROSPECTIVE MEMBER IS DECIDING WHETHER TO JOIN OR NOT BECAUSE THE HISTORY IS BAGGAGE AND ANYONE SMART ALWAYS KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE GETTING INTO" - BD

and embrace what the SSX is today.

Why did I become an eXile ?

Because of what happened in the SSC.
Because of some people that forgot that friendship, fun, and honor, are more important than a game.


Why am I an eXile now ?

Because I choose to be apart from the herd.
Because I refuse to exploit in games I play.
Because I refuse to grief other players.
Because I never forget it's just a game.
Because I want to be a part of guild where friendship, fun and honor come before loot.

All of which make this guild unlike most others, and truly makes eXiles a fitting name.

Zeph.
"You're scared of mice and spiders, but oh-so-much greater is your fear that one day the two species will cross-breed to form an all-powerful race of mice-spiders who will immobilize human beings in giant webs in order to steal cheese." - Spaced (1999)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:01 pm

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Zephir wrote:Because I choose to be apart from the herd.
Because I refuse to exploit in games I play.
Because I refuse to grief other players.
Because I never forget it's just a game.
Because I want to be a part of guild where friendship, fun and honor come before loot.
All of which make this guild unlike most others, and truly makes eXiles a fitting name.
You know, whilst i haven't agreed with some of the points people have made (but ofc respect them), your post hit home a bit.
I hadn't looked at it from that point of view before but in the sense that we're not like most other clans out there, we don't strive to be the best of the best, push for loot & progression and all that i do agree with you that exiles does fit the bill as we are kinda special & unique like that. I'm not sure Society paints the same picture, for the type of group we are, forgetting why we may have named ourselves Exiles to begin with. If we do end up going for an alternative, right now i'd say Community would be the best option as that's what we are and always have been, don't think there's anyone who could disagree with that.

I am still of the opinion that the name change could do some good, but i do have some mixed feelings atm (like above) if i'm honest. I think it best to just see how the poll does, and any other dicussions/alternatives/compromises that maybe come of that. Tis a difficult subject but if we just leave it at the poll i do think one of the sides is going to be left unhappy. Even if the poll ends how i may want it to personally (and my opinion may have changed by then anyway what with the mixed feelings), i wouldn't be happy knowing some of the people that voted otherwise weren't happy. Would be nice to try and have everyone as happy as can be, that's not always possible but hopefully it will turn out to be in this case.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:07 pm

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Trixster
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From the response of this thread,
It seems that the majority of the members have voted not to change the name. because that's the case why is the following thread here?

http://www.shatteredstar.org/forums/vie ... php?t=6487

I have been quite on the subject because my wife Magdalena is talkative for the both of us. but over the last 4+ years doing recruiting and such for wow aoc and such have never had someone believe SSX is SEX or anything like it.

just my observations.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:15 pm

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Anubis
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Trixster wrote:From the response of this thread,
It seems that the majority of the members have voted not to change the name. because that's the case why is the following thread here?

http://www.shatteredstar.org/forums/vie ... php?t=6487
That thread isn't related to any potential name change. It's a move over to a redesign of the Main Site (to make it look like the new forum skin) and a newer piece of forum software - both of these will happen regardless of whether we change the name. I just felt that now, whilst the web files are being edited anyway, was the right time to bring this up. I did not mean to give the impression that 'transition' meant changing the name with this poll not yet done :)

However, with that said, there is no plan for this thread to be closed speedily. There are likely enough a few weeks yet before the transition to the new designs/software occurs, so there is no real need to close the door finally on this vote until then.

On another note, I would agree with MS that it's difficult - with the poll a lot less decisive than I was expecting tbh (I was expecting strong feelings either way, rather than a more shared vote). Unfortunately, it tends to be that there is always one party disappointed when discussions like this come up. Hopefully, whatever the final result of this turns out to be, we will be able to come up with a compromise of sorts to keep everyone happy as possible.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:17 pm

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Trixster wrote:From the response of this thread,
It seems that the majority of the members have voted not to change the name. because that's the case why is the following thread here?
http://www.shatteredstar.org/forums/vie ... php?t=6487
Basically the forum is using phpBB2 right now which is very out dated and no longer officially supported, so Anny has been working behind the scenes to upgrade the forum software to phpBB3 instead. The name change was only really brought up now because if we did decide to change our name before then it would be best to have graphics and text changed at the same time rather than having to go back and redo things later, so isn't related other than that. So would be a good time to do any of the cleanups he's suggested at the same time too. :)

(Edit: I see Anny's just replied as i was writing this hehe)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:51 pm

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Messiah
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I understand BD's reasoned and delicatley delivered point. He is ever the master of subtlety and persuasion.

Nice post Zeph.

It is true that we adopted "Exiles" for reasons which are no longer relevant. It is equally true that "Exiles" has taken on new meanings for many of us who migrated from the SSC as well as those who have since joined us. "Exiles" has transcended its original meaning and does have currency for many here.

If our name represented nothing more than a schism in a long dead group, I'd be fully behind a name change. Since it has evolved to encompass greater meaning, I am wary of a change not supported by a very significant portion of the community.

For my part, I am open to rebranding that encompasses Shattered Star (but not the Confederation) and sits well with the clear majority of our members.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:02 pm

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I tend to share the sentiment that Zephir and others have eloquently stated, that the name has become more than its genesis may have indicated (or perhaps, an extension of that genesis, with broader implications rather than the rather singular original implication).

I do however, understand the desire for some kind of change. It has been several years now, we've grown and changed as a group, and added many new faces. We've become something of our own volition, rather than out of spite, or hurt, or whatever. Its a real community, maybe not as active as some of us would like, and MMOs changed the landscape significantly, but a community nonetheless.

I like the word exile, mostly because we choose to be exiles from the rest of the nonsense out there, and we chose to exile ourselves from the nonsense we dealt with years ago. It makes sense to me on many levels.

Regardless of the original intent, it means something to people now. Names have meaning, and people, for better or worse, have their own perceptions of those meanings.

It may not be the time to have a change, but change shouldn't be something to be afraid of, so long as we do it for the right reasons. Nor would a change need to be sweepingly instantaneous. We have on at least a couple of occasions, modified our in game guild names to suit, say, a RP element, or a space restriction (Exiles of the Shattered Star, etc), so we should not feel encumbered by an arbitrary designation, either.

I miss the days of the SSC tag, I can see a potential where we ultimately reclaim that tag, perhaps in the form of something like "Shattered Star Community" with individual groups retaining individuality, allowing them to be "Burning Stars," "Exiles," "Shattered Stars" or whatever makes sense both for the group as well as the game. Something like Community seems to resonate with me, both from a "wouldn't it be cool/nostalgic to be SSC again?" as well as a positive label for our little slice of the web, something that demonstrates what we are as well as Exiles does/did. Something without ANY negative connotations.

A rose by any other name, if you will.

Its something worth considering, if not now, in future. That said, I think it might be high time to replace our definition of our group with Zephir's, since we'll remain exiles for at least the near term (as this poll wraps up), which should make at least some of the negatives that some people read into the name?
Why eXiles?

Because we choose to be apart from the herd.
Because we refuse to exploit in games I play.
Because we refuse to grief other players.
Because we never forget it's just a game.
Because we want to be a part of guild where friendship, fun and honor come before loot.

We are exiles by choice, and proud of it.
The more I think about it, the more I can see myself getting behind a change to Shattered Star Community(ies), with groups retaining names as appropriate and new ones having the freedom to vary their own identities while retaining our core pride in being different.

Food for thought.
Last edited by Inquisitor on Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:37 pm

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I am not around much anymore. I realize that. But to me, the name is important. It is a reminder not to take ourselves too seriously. We were happier as exiles than as something else. To me it will always be important to be and Exile. You can change the moniker, the look and feel, even how things are done; but we were all happier here.

If people are truly becoming unhappy with it, lets change it. However I don't feel that is the case, and I don't see much from the other groups indicating that they are either.

Just my thoughts.. :)
================================
I will be forever Shattered Star, but only as an
EXILE can I find peace in this lifetime.
================================

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:05 pm

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I understand where BD is coming from, flying the SSC tag was something special, I liked the ideals and supported them.

For me that was ruined by the behavior of a few people, but I'm over it. I don't bear any grudges, but I do feel that the SSC was something that was, and that SSX has taken on meaning beyond our intentions when we adopted the name.

We now have many members that were never part of SSC and they have no first hand knowledge of the trials and torments that led to the creation of the SSX.

They didn't join because of our history, they joined because of who and what we are now. Because they identified with the way we handle ourselves in the games we play, and now the SSX banner has been carried far beyond the conflicts that lead to it's creation.

I can fully understand how older members feel about having the SSC tag, it's just that to me that is looking back, and not looking forward to the bright new future we forged under the SSX banner.

At the end of the day we are not defined by our name but by our beliefs and behavior, and we should choose a name that fits how we see ourselves. Changing our name won't change how I feel, or the standards I choose to uphold and changing it back to SSC won't change the past.

In fact I think maybe that Ed's suggestion has a lot of merit. Allowing individual groups to name themselves around a common theme makes a lot of sense, and would be a way in which we could truly reclaim the the SSC name. I know that some never liked the Confederation part of the name, but it seems to that that is actually what we were, and are. Each group is a semi autonomous group of gamers (fragments of the shattered star), and we all come together under a common constitution for the support and benefit of each individual group (a confederation).

Either way SSC and SSX will always be a part of me, and whatever name is used I will by my beliefs and actions always be in exile from the mainstream attitude of gamers.

Oh and yes I agree Ed it is high time we adopted a new definition of SSX and dropped the SSC schism as the reason we are exiles.

Zeph.
"You're scared of mice and spiders, but oh-so-much greater is your fear that one day the two species will cross-breed to form an all-powerful race of mice-spiders who will immobilize human beings in giant webs in order to steal cheese." - Spaced (1999)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:47 pm

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undrin wrote:I would like to hear more about the Sex sounding part of this issue. As those I have talked to on the phone about it have not run into this in the US at least.
You must not abbreviate it huh? ;) ESS ESS EXXX... Especially the way I pronounce it, with emphasis on the X, kinda makes one sound like a stuttering pervert.
Stracius wrote:I was hoping people would bring up their own viewpoint on what it means to them. Would be happy to hear from anyone else on this specific subject.
Ok, I'll chime in. (Again... I think I'm up to $.06 now)

It doesn't mean anything to me. Insomuch as I don't feel it describes us.

ex⋅ile
   /ˈɛgzaɪl, ˈɛksaɪl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [eg-zahyl, ek-sahyl]
noun, verb, -iled, -il⋅ing.
noun
1. expulsion from one's native land by authoritative decree.
2. the fact or state of such expulsion: to live in exile.
3. a person banished from his or her native land.
4. prolonged separation from one's country or home, as by force of circumstances: wartime exile.
5. anyone separated from his or her country or home voluntarily or by force of circumstances.
6. the Exile, the Babylonian captivity of the Jews, 597538 b.c.
verb (used with object)
7. to expel or banish (a person) from his or her country; expatriate.
8. to separate from country, home, etc.: Disagreements exiled him from his family.


I do agree that the choice of term was appropriate when the original members left SSC. And to a degree it is still appropriate since that situation led to the creation of SSX. However, I think it's a stretch for it to refer to the sentiment some other people have attached to it. By definition it doesn't mean "non elitist" or "proudly different," it means someone who was removed (by whatever circumstances) from their community & even if it's self-imposed- by my understanding of the word- it's not a positive event. I wasn't kicked out of anywhere else that resulted in me finding a home here and I certainly don't feel that anywhere else is "home" and that this is only an alternative because I left or was kicked out of my home...

Some of us were exiles from SSC & may still be exiles from other groups, but much more importantly we're a community in our own right & I don't think "exile" defines us as an entity. That's how I understood BD's argument & I think he's right.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:23 pm

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I don't even know you and you seem to be just about the only one here that got the point.

Others either didn't get it or they intentionally ignored it.

Man I'm depressed. Where's my vodka.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:27 pm

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El Oso wrote:However, I think it's a stretch for it to refer to the sentiment some other people have attached to it. By definition it doesn't mean "non elitist" or "proudly different," it means someone who was removed (by whatever circumstances) from their community & even if it's self-imposed- by my understanding of the word- it's not a positive event. I wasn't kicked out of anywhere else that resulted in me finding a home here and I certainly don't feel that anywhere else is "home" and that this is only an alternative because I left or was kicked out of my home...

Some of us were exiles from SSC & may still be exiles from other groups, but much more importantly we're a community in our own right & I don't think "exile" defines us as an entity. That's how I understood BD's argument & I think he's right.
I never attached any meaning to the word exile other than the dictionary definition you provided.

Those 'sentiments' are the circumstances/reasons for my self imposed exile.
"You're scared of mice and spiders, but oh-so-much greater is your fear that one day the two species will cross-breed to form an all-powerful race of mice-spiders who will immobilize human beings in giant webs in order to steal cheese." - Spaced (1999)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:44 pm

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BlackDove wrote:I don't even know you and you seem to be just about the only one here that got the point.

Others either didn't get it or they intentionally ignored it.

Man I'm depressed. Where's my vodka.
Why do you assume that people don't get it, or intentionally ignored it ?

People just gave their personal reasons, just because their opinion is different to yours does not mean they didn't get your point or ignored it.

I only stated MY reasons for not wanting to switch back to some form of SSC, and MY thoughts on why I find eXiles a fitting name.

You may disagree with my thoughts as is your right, but don't assume I don't get your point because I happen to disagree with it.

Zeph.
"You're scared of mice and spiders, but oh-so-much greater is your fear that one day the two species will cross-breed to form an all-powerful race of mice-spiders who will immobilize human beings in giant webs in order to steal cheese." - Spaced (1999)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:57 pm

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No, actually, I agree with all your thoughts.

It's just that they don't have any significance to the topic at hand. YOUR feelings and YOUR reasons, as you emphasize, (and anyone else's for that matter) don't come into play when it comes to the technical aspect of the term "exiles" not meaning anything valid anymore. While I did post my own additional reasons for wanting it gone (which are my own, and don't matter), I did expect for you to be able to pick apart the subjective from the objective.

Perhaps, my failing, as I assumed everyone would get the idea is relevant to everyone as a group, not just to themselves.

Magdalena picked up on it right off the bat, and then ignored it outright when trying to make a case as to how it might stand for something different (as in YOU DO UNDERSTAND IT MEANS NOTHING AT THE MOMENT, don'tcha? :)).

All great and good, until you realize that the definition proposed (and any definition you can think of and _add_) is not related to the name, considering the fact I've been doing this shit for 8 years with or without the name in the exact same manner that she described, forever. So has she with the WoW group, and so has everyone who is here today.

The Shattered Star organization, C or X, never ever was about anything other than the tenets she put forth, and you expanded on, and this is where your entire arguments fall apart (they are however, great for a separate topic, an action that Inquisitor initiated as a result, which it to replace all the Abouts and Why's to what you wrote - but again, beside the point) because we're back to dealing with the actual name.

The part that is ignored, in lieu of YOUR OWN feelings and YOUR OWN thoughts (which matter, oh so much, and which nobody else has) is the fact that the name will always be useless, as it is now, as it has been for the past, three or some years. No amount of changing the definitions will lose the fact of how it came about and why, and what it will mean, for as long as it remains.

What it means to you personally, that's all great. Because everyone has their own personal meanings attached to it. That was beside the point. And you ignore the point by saying "SSC meant this to me, SSX means something else to me".

Point was simple, and I guess, it was my mistake on trying to present it like it's something everyone can relate to. It's not, because as people have said in the thread, they didn't know or still aren't aware of why the name is there in the first place.

Call shit by any other name, put flowers in it, at the end of the day, it's still shit. (well, Ed used the better analogy, Rose by any other name, but some of us know the true nature of this Rose).

Five men named the clan for one exact specific reason. I'm just trying to take the <censored> ring back to Mordor here. As much as it is YOUR PRECIOUS whenever you look at it, it doesn't change the fact the Evil Soul of Sauron is forever chained to it. Maybe you can't see Sauron in it, nobody really could, but he was always there, making it that much more meaningless considering we killed Sauron quite some time ago.

All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light (god this analogy sucks so bad, but I'm gonna keep going) so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance that should really be there whenever you name a community.

But alas, one does not simply walk into Mordor. And just to make it extra clear, I'm not saying it's your fault. I guess I'm just not Frodo.

I'M MORE LIKE BOROMIR. TEN ARROWS TO THE CHEST. HELLS YEAH. Okay, this is really out of hand now.

tl;dr: Woof.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:36 pm

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El Oso
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:09 pm
BlackDove wrote:god this analogy sucks so bad, but I'm gonna keep going)
I appreciate the analogy as I am (well, was) part of the Lotro contingent ;)


@Zeph-
By definition, the word exile is not intended to be used that way. I provided the dictionary definition to illustrate; You cannot exile yourself from an ideal or from 'the norm'- it's not how the word is intended to be used.

It's similar to the alternate use of 'grow' that has entered common usage recently. "I am growing my company." You grow corn, you can't grow a company. Etymologically and by definition, the word is not intended to be used that way.

EDIT- I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just saying that the 'exiles' in our name means something very specific and I don't think it's open to reinterpretation... I'm OK with saying SSX is 'exiled' because some members left SSC a billion years ago but trying to make it mean something else actually makes the name invalid.

</vocab police>
Last edited by El Oso on Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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