Exiles

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Do you think we should keep the "Exiles" part of our name or remove it?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:39 am

I believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Keep the Exiles tag
9
38%
I don't believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Remove the Exiles tag
8
33%
I don't care either way
7
29%
 
Total votes: 24

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:49 pm

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BlackDove
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Guess the name stays.

What a shame.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:23 pm

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M.Steiner
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hmm, personally I don't think it should be called straight away tbh. Imo discussions should probably continue, somehow. But that's not for me to decide.

Look at it this way. If the poll had ended when the remove option was still in the lead by 1 vote, or if the final result had been:
8 Keep
9 Remove
7 Don't care

instead. If we had automatically chose to remove the tag based on a win by just 1 vote there would have been an uproar, right?. Can those of you who voted for option 1 or 3 say that you would have just accepted that decision and sat back happily if the shoe had been on the other foot? If we're honest now I seriously doubt it.
Not that I'm going to cause a shit storm myself but this works both ways. I'd just be extremely disappointed if a decision was made automatically for keeping the name as I can just imagine how people would have reacted if it had been the other way around and we had pushed a name change through from a win by 1 vote.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:58 pm

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Anubis
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I've said before that whatever way the poll ended should have been the result. If that had been 9 in favour of change, then I would not have objected - I would probably not have voted in whatever new propositions poll was put together, as I wouldn't have felt it appropriate, but I would have let it stand.

Imo the result is there, that's what stands. Just as you can't say "a draw means a win for us", I don't see how "a win for x means that y wins" makes sense either.

Being on the side of keeping the name though, take my views with a pinch of salt. All I can do is honestly say if it had been the other way I would have been upset, but not tried to stop it.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:05 pm

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Mechanus wrote:Also, if a name change is pushed through with only 7 votes for while the other 2/3 of the group are ignored or the 1/3 who voted neither are lumped into one particular camp, I will change my vote and will most likely leave the community.

I'll just quote this. Calling it straight away that we're to keep the name based on those poll results would be just the same.
In my opinion :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:22 pm

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Anubis
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That's different though, as it relates to a situation where there would have been no clear winner.

As far as I'm concerned, what I said earlier in the thread stands:

Anubis wrote:At the end of the day, once this thread and any subsequent poll is said and done it's almost certainly going to be a case of one side forcing the other into something they are wholeheartedly against. There's no getting round that, it's just how majority rule works - and I'd hope that no-one is against us using the principle of majority rule for this, as it's a principle we've always adopted for everything in the past (and if people DO disagree with that it's a whole different discussion we need to have).

If people weren't happy with majority rule, that should have been discussed before this poll took place. It's really not fair to complain about the decision process after the vote is over...
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:00 pm

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Oh I've never had a problem with our majority rule or how everything gets taken to a vote. However I don't see 9 out of 24 votes as a majority win, not with my understanding of what "majority" means in the dictionary. There were 15 other people who voted on that poll who did not vote to keep. Just as there were (all but 1) who voted for other options besides removing. I wouldn't have felt any different had it been the other way around:

M.Steiner wrote:I know I've said before that I don't think it'd be a good idea to keep a name that only 7 people voted to keep, 8 people voted to remove and 7 don't care either way. But what I didn't mean from that was that I thought it should automatically mean we change it. I just meant that I thought it was best we tried to reach a more unanimous decision somehow and continue discussions rather than make any final decisions.


So I'm not just saying this now because it ended in your favour and I'm unhappy with the result. I wouldn't have been one to suggest we call it a win for remove either should that have ended with 1 vote ahead like it was doing, like I quoted. Why I suggested talks should have continued before any final decisions were made.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:59 pm

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Whizbang
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Looking at the poll results, there is no majority for either side. 1 vote for or against does not a majority make. It's clear as day out of those who voted for/against that it was nowhere near a majority.
Walk on with hope in your heart
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[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

<whizbang> Who's the ref?
<Isileth> Some dickhead

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:24 pm

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Mechanus wrote:Looking at the poll results, there is no majority for either side. 1 vote for or against does not a majority make. It's clear as day out of those who voted for/against that it was nowhere near a majority.

Then where do we go from here? As Arbiter, what are your recommendations?
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:56 pm

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As I was grumping about in irc the other day, I don't like the idea of the vote passing by one or two votes either way. I'm fine with the arbiter being elected by a single vote, that's less permanent. When it comes to making a major (if not purely cosmetic) change, I'd prefer a clear majority shown by a specific position. I don't see this as resolved, and it warrants further level-headed discussion.
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:59 pm

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No, that's not something you can do. You cannot carry out a vote under a particular ruleset or system and then change those rules once the vote has been concluded. That is highly undemocratic, and frankly insulting to those who took the time to contribute to the process. If anyone had a problem with our manner of decision making, that should have been raised seperately and long ago if it has been an existing concern.

We have always operated by majority consensus, and if people want to change that it is an entirely seperate conversation - and one that once had would not mean old decisions taken should be revisited. No-one objected to this poll being carried out under majority rule, or voiced any concern over the majority rule system in over eight years, and therefore it stands as it is. If you are unhappy with outcomes like this, then you should have raised that opinion beforehand. It is not as if no-one had the opportunity to raise it as an issue.

Also, for those saying "38% is no majority", MS even gave everyone a chance to comment on the poll options before they were posted - had people expressed concerns that the "don't care" option could result in a majority with less than 50% of the vote, they had the opportunity to say so. Again, you cannot now complain about the result once the vote is concluded, especially when you were given such an opportunity to mould the question being asked.


Let me make my position crystal clear. I will support or engage in no further efforts to discuss a name change in the near future, as the discussion has now been had and the community has spoken. If steps are taken to proceed with furthering a name change after it lost the popular vote, I will be highly concerned and angered.

The concept of changing the rules now because you are not happy with how this vote has gone, and/or attempting to push something through after it has been rejected, is little different to that which I left the SSC over - people deciding that rules and ideologies did not suit them anymore and opting to change them when it suited them rather than sticking to principles.

If that is the direction that this community decides it wants to take, then I have misjudged what this community has stood for over the last eight years. I came here to get away from that kind of philosophy, not to see it raised again eight years down the line.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:08 pm

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M.Steiner
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Doubt you meant any offence by any of what you said and we have since talked on IRC but I can't deny that I find some of those comparisons to the SSC and changing of rules and principles as anything but insulting. I'm just defending our equal voices here and trying to keep things fair for everyone who took the time to vote and share their thoughts.

I know you have said before that if the "remove" option had come out 1 vote ahead you would have accepted that and let it slide even though you would have been unhappy with the decision. That's easy for you to say of course but do you think changing our name would have been the right thing to do if 15 other members had voted otherwise and only 9 for specifically removing? I don't. I would not have dreamed of pushing for that if it was the other way around, but just for us to continue talking before we decided on anything final either way. I said that when we were in the lead too which I quoted in my last post.
Either option may have come out with the most votes (by 1 single vote each) and I haven't (and still don't) have an issue with our majority win rule but not 1 of those 3 options came out with a majority, no where near it. For us to push it any one way and call it before we continued to discuss would just be ignoring half of those people who took the time to vote and throw our "equality" out of the window in the process. You're right that the community has spoken but a majority of the people who voted did not vote for what you did and what you're saying we should go with, only 9 did. Neither did a majority vote for what I did or a majority vote for option 3 either. None of those 3 options show a majority. (And when I added all 3 options I honestly didn't expect it to be. Was fully prepared for a landslide win towards keeping).

It's sad to hear you say you'd be angered if we entered further talks before we made any final decisions too and that you think this should automatically be passed. For us to just go with such a split result would be going against what I thought we were about but we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
That's all I've got to say anyhow. If others see 9 votes as an overall majority win in favour of keeping and call that without any further talks then so be it. I won't be angered, pissed off or kick up a fuss about it. I just think we're better than that and can discuss those results rationally before jumping the gun given just how split they were. A majority group decision is not 1 vote difference between 3 and this is not the kind of vote which is only directed to a specific group of ours or like the Arbiter poll which goes up every single year and is never permanent.


Since Mech has replied already too. Messiah? What's your take on all of this too considering you are most likely going to become our new Arbiter in the next 48hrs? :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:31 pm

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Whizbang
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Anubis wrote:No, that's not something you can do. You cannot carry out a vote under a particular ruleset or system and then change those rules once the vote has been concluded. That is highly undemocratic, and frankly insulting to those who took the time to contribute to the process. If anyone had a problem with our manner of decision making, that should have been raised seperately and long ago if it has been an existing concern.

We have always operated by majority consensus, and if people want to change that it is an entirely seperate conversation - and one that once had would not mean old decisions taken should be revisited. No-one objected to this poll being carried out under majority rule, or voiced any concern over the majority rule system in over eight years, and therefore it stands as it is. If you are unhappy with outcomes like this, then you should have raised that opinion beforehand. It is not as if no-one had the opportunity to raise it as an issue.

Also, for those saying "38% is no majority", MS even gave everyone a chance to comment on the poll options before they were posted - had people expressed concerns that the "don't care" option could result in a majority with less than 50% of the vote, they had the opportunity to say so. Again, you cannot now complain about the result once the vote is concluded, especially when you were given such an opportunity to mould the question being asked.


Let me make my position crystal clear. I will support or engage in no further efforts to discuss a name change in the near future, as the discussion has now been had and the community has spoken. If steps are taken to proceed with furthering a name change after it lost the popular vote, I will be highly concerned and angered.

The concept of changing the rules now because you are not happy with how this vote has gone, and/or attempting to push something through after it has been rejected, is little different to that which I left the SSC over - people deciding that rules and ideologies did not suit them anymore and opting to change them when it suited them rather than sticking to principles.

If that is the direction that this community decides it wants to take, then I have misjudged what this community has stood for over the last eight years. I came here to get away from that kind of philosophy, not to see it raised again eight years down the line.


Let's get this very clear, right now. There were 3 options for the vote. There were 3 sets of votes submitted: 9 to keep, 8 to change, 7 who didn't care.

If you want to go by even simple majority, then a vote should be held for naming the community, because 15 votes were not for keeping, 16 votes were not for changing, and 17 votes were to do something about the name. 17, the majority of the poll, were to do something about the name, whether it be to keep or change.

You want my recommendation, hold a vote for the names you wish to see this community go by. Exiles, Choice 1, Choice 2, Choice 3, etc. From there, it would be highest vote count wins. There are enough people to vote between the names that the Exiles 'should' technically win by simple count. However, I also see those wishing to see a name change be able to try and 'pitch their sale', as it were. If they can't, then Exiles stays. If they can, then there should be enough sway to get enough people to vote for one of the other choices.

But this fact remains that there were 17 people voting to do something about the name of this community. 17 out of 24 votes. That is a majority vote. And that is how I see this, as Arbiter.
Walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone

[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

<whizbang> Who's the ref?
<Isileth> Some dickhead

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:36 pm

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BlackDove
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A small suggestion:

Name A, Name B, Name C, etc. poll first.

Then exiles vs. whatever name that wins the previous poll.

Otherwise you risk name A getting 3 votes, name B getting 4 votes, name C getting 2 votes, and exiles getting 5 votes, thus winning.

Not that I give two <censored> anyway, just thinking out loud if you guys decide to allow it or not.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:22 am

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I would like to take a moment from all this to give you my perspective on this entire debacle.

I was not around for the initial split. I wasn't around within the first year of the split. I didn't join until many years later. All I have to understand the split is old threads and discussions by current membership about what happened and why. So I cannot begin to fathom how people felt then about what went on or now about how the name is a stain of old history or that it is a part of history that should be forgotten. All I can see is that it is a chapter of the timeline of this community.

And now, today, I stand here looking at the final vote and watching both sides try to explain what the vote means. 9 to keep, 8 to change, 7 to do whatever. Numbers with no real majority and almost evenly divided amongst the voting community.

So now the question is "What does it all mean? Where do we go from here?"

Being Arbiter at the time of this means it is my responsibility to resolve the issue. Being Arbiter means being the asshole who gets to decide who gets to walk away happy and who gets to walk away upset. A choice left to someone who has no connection, whatsoever, to the events that occurred.

So now what do I do? How do I handle this? I don't want to be the one to make a call on something that I played no part in and have no right to say what should or shouldn't happen. Yet it seems that I have to because I was the one elected to deal with things like this 'for the betterment of the community'. But how do you make a decision when you know that there will be a group who will feel cheated? How do you make the call on something you have no vested interest in? Because let's be honest, I don't care what the name is or could be. I'm not here because of the name. I'm here because of the community. But that doesn't seem to count in this discussion. This discussion is over a name that bears the weight of the past and the 'future' of how the community moves forward. And I say that with the loosest of meanings because I do not see the future of this community wrapped in a simple name.

But I digress.

So, how do you handle a situation that you know could result in a very real and possible split of members and maybe even watching some depart or stop being active to the point of being a lingering name? And why is it that it should be decided by someone who has only heard of these bygone days through word of mouth and old postings? Now I get to be the asshole and Arbiter to have caused further disruption of the community over a name. A simple name. And it saddens me that I have to be the one to make this call and it upsets me that I have to be the one to make this call. I never thought that being Arbiter would lead me to have to make a decision that could unravel a community that has been around longer than any other I've been a part of.

That's all I have to say, really. I wanted you to have the chance to see what this discussion has done to a single member who had to make a choice. And if it did this to that single member, think about what it has done to the other groups that were involved. A simple stupid name. Now we stand here. :(
Walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone

[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

<whizbang> Who's the ref?
<Isileth> Some dickhead

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:53 am

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Anubis
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I am sorry that you're in this position Mech. Really, I am. I was Arbiter for two years, but never did I need to make a decision over such a heated or emotional issue like this one is, and I don't envy you in that.

I would like to be able to say to you that I'll try and make your life easier by retracting my objections, but you know from our discussion tonight that I can't do that. Whilst I am sorry that you have to make a decision that will upset one half of this debate, considering what is now being proposed this is a matter of principle for me that I cannot back down from.

To that end...

I am sorry, MS, that you find the comparison to the SSC insulting, but I'm afraid that's exactly how things seem to be. To balance the scales, be assured that I find the proposals being put forward here equally insulting, as well as the notion that winning a vote in a format we have adopted for the past eight years (with no prior complaints) is somehow no longer acceptable, and as a result we should just proceed with the option that lost.

I always assumed that we were all playing by the same rulesheet here, with fairness at the heart of it. So if I went into a vote like this with the clear intention to abide by the result whatever it turned out to be, I expected that others would too (and for the record, as I indicated to you earlier, I went into the final 3/4 days of the vote expecting to lose it). Clearly, from the reaction so far both here and to a lesser degree in IRC, I was wrong in that view.

The execution of what is now being suggested is nothing less tha a direct move against that which the "Exiles" name means to me. As I said, I left the SSC to come here in order to get away from the willingness to change principles when it suited people, the willingness to manipulate the membership and do things in underhanded and undemocratic ways. As such, I will not even entertain the proposal of further discussion and/or votes on a name change after it has lost the popular vote.

Should such a thing be executed, the Exiles name will lose all meaning anyway. That which it has stood for to me for the last eight years will no longer be the case, and there would be no pride whatsoever in any replacement - only the shame of how it was acquired, or "won".
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:09 am

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Bit melodramatic there.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:33 am

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I voted I don't care either way, because i am here to be part of a community. Not because of a name. There are some strong opinions on both sides of this. My opinion is that we had a vote, and keeping Exiles in the name won, even if by only 1 vote. A simple majority is still a majority. I think we should all just accept that and move on. I would hate to see our community suffer over something as simple as a name. I don't think anyone and any side of the argument wants that.

My 2 cents, take it as you will.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:26 am

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Anubis wrote:I left the SSC to come here in order to get away from the willingness to change principles when it suited people, the willingness to manipulate the membership and do things in underhanded and undemocratic ways. As such, I will not even entertain the proposal of further discussion and/or votes on a name change after it has lost the popular vote.

I can completely agree with you being against such things Anny, you're not the only one who had problems with that stuff. But I couldn't disagree more with your likening and comparing those to a situation like this and what some of us have said.
All I was hoping to get out of this poll and discussion was an overall win for whichever side, which clearly reflected how the majority of our membership felt. Wishful thinking on my part to think that would be a walk in the park but this did not happen. No one side of this came out with an overall majority. The "keep" option does not reflect how a majority of our voting members voted unless you're going to start ignoring some of those.
To just say we're going to keep the name now without allowing any further talks, when yourself and only 8 other people voted to do just that would be madness. Just as it would had it been the other way around. 24 people voted in that poll. 9 is nothing.

I've already been accused before of only seeing my side of the argument but in this case I feel you're doing the same with your stubbornness to not want to take these talks further with your "will not even entertain" before we make any final decisions. Is it wrong for me to want us to try and come to some kind of agreement or outcome which does reflect the majority of the membership and will hopefully keep more people happy? That's all I've suggested we do :)


Out of the suggestions made so far I'd have to say I agree with a mix of what Mech and BD have said.
1. We open a discussion thread where people can suggest names on top of the ones which have already been suggested previously. Then once we have a selection to pick from we add a poll option where each of us can vote on our favourite. Just as an option and not including Exiles in this particular poll.
2. Then whichever name that the majority of us preferred from the poll above gets put in a final poll against Exiles. Option 1: Exiles. Option 2: New name. We let these polls run for a couple of weeks each to ensure enough of us get to vote and then the name with the most votes wins.
I see this being the best solution personally and should reflect a greater number of us than the current poll which is so extremely divided.

I don't want to see this place suffer or cause any further upset, and it's shitty that Mech has been put into such a position and I'm sorry for that too. As I said as well, if we did decide to just accept those results as a win for keep I won't kick up a fuss or anything even though I strongly believe that would be wrong of us. I'll just let it drop if so. But atm I think this would probably be the best way forward to get a clearer and fairer outcome for everyone involved.

If the majority of our members really do want to keep the Exiles name instead of whichever other name it gets put up against then the final vote will reflect that choice and the 9 of you who voted to keep it have nothing to worry about. If it doesn't however?.. then "keeping" clearly wasn't the right way forward and we did a good thing by continuing to talk about this instead of putting our foot down and passing "keep" as an automatic win. Can't think of a better way forward atm considering these results, though I am very tired heh.


Bed time anyway :thumb:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:02 am

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Messiah
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M.Steiner wrote:Since Mech has replied already too. Messiah? What's your take on all of this too considering you are most likely going to become our new Arbiter in the next 48hrs? :)


Properly worded, I see an opportunity to sabotage my election to arbiter. Tempting.

I am in a unique position in that I am likely to become the next arbiter and may have to address this issue. I think it is best that I not expound upon this situation more than necessary at this time.

I will say only the following at this time: we have but one carefully selected word that describes the values of this community and acts as our reference in ALL situations, and that word is Friendship. Every individual invested in this debate should carefully examine his or her statements and feelings against this axiom of Friendship. If leaving this community over its name is a possibility for you, then I suggest that you may have misunderstood this community and the values upon which it was founded. We can disagree. We can compromise. We can find a path as a group of friends.

I address this to everyone and to no one in particular.
"All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance ...." - BlackDove the Beneficent

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:47 am

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Stracius
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Anubis wrote:If you are unhappy with outcomes like this, then you should have raised that opinion beforehand. It is not as if no-one had the opportunity to raise it as an issue.


Stracius wrote:As I was grumping about in irc the other day, I don't like the idea of the vote passing by one or two votes either way


Before you jump down my throat. I did ^. And at the time I mentioned it in irc, the vote for change was leading. I still voiced my discontent. I'm reiterating that now. I don't like the idea, I did not like the idea, and I still will not like the idea of a major change happening with only one or two votes making the difference. If we're going to argue for a majority, I would prefer it to be a clear majority.

Also:
Anubis wrote:Let me make my position crystal clear. I will support or engage in no further efforts to discuss a name change in the near future, as the discussion has now been had and the community has spoken. If steps are taken to proceed with furthering a name change after it lost the popular vote, I will be highly concerned and angered.


Pardon me if I'm not highly concerned about you being highly concerned and angered - there's no indication you're reciprocating. So, I'm just gonna say, "Too damn bad". I will continue to discuss this until either someone gives me a better convincing argument otherwise, or I see a clear consensus in the community as to how to resolve this. If only because the one reason I left the SSC was because of people who attempted to talk down to others who dissented and tell them to be quiet pissed me the <censored> off. So yeah. There's your SSC throwback. Works both ways.

And if you couldn't tell, it's because I'm attempting to be civil; that response pissed me the <censored> off.
hoott19 wrote:There are many drinks that are drunk by the people.So, the mostly, person like to have beer. They like because of it's benifit. The benifiti is that it hepls to reduce fat from the body and make the mental calm.
[WoW] This type of games should be up dated as soon as possible. Because there are many people that ere very found of such games. As these are very help full for make the brain power full and strong. So, mentaly strongness is the need of this presant era.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:47 am

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Stracius
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I should probably point out that despite my earlier anger, I still consider everone involved to be my friends (yes, you Anny). That is why I am here. I respect everyone's opinion even if I may disagree with them. I won't let anyone who I don't care for know if they've upset me because they ultimately don't want nor deserve my time. On the other hand, everyone here was willing to participate in a serious discussion, and I both respect and admire that.

The result of this vote does not upset me, though I do feel concern for those who might be. I might have even voted to abstain except that I believe we would lose more from not changing vs. remaining content with what we have been (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I disagree with the idea of potential stagnation).

As I stated before, I'm more concerned about how major changes are considered, despite how they may ultimately be superficial. This vote does not change who we are - regardless of how it resulted - nor did I expect it to. But if there are two sides to a debate, I would like to see one side convinced of the other's argument. So far it has been too close for me to see a clear winner, and therefor I expect to see discontent. I do not want to see that happen. We are too close to write off each other because we may disagree. If this thread upsets you in any way, consider why.

The simple fact that we are so closely divided should inspire both sides to realize that further discussion is needed, if not necessary, to maintain the reality that we are a community. We are not a one-party system, nor a two-party system, nor even in politics. We are a bunch of people who love games (and more), and can get together here because, if nowhere else, we can admit to each other that we love to play video games... though I may be speaking for myself especially.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:17 am

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Anubis
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In a similar vein to Strac's post, I would like to clarify exactly why I am so livid over the direction this thread has taken, because from reading a few replies that have been made I'm not altogether sure it's gotten across properly.

My anger in relation to this is not to do with the name. The name is the furthest thing from my mind right now. My anger is about the way in which some are proposing that due process with regards to decisions taken by the community is not to be followed; that people are proposing that rules as it relates to balloting of the membership be changed retrospectively after a vote has taken place; and that what I perceive to be underhanded tactics are being proposed as a way to continue with something which the membership has voted against using the established system. For the record, if "change" had won and someone on the "keep" side had proposed this, I would have been just as vehement in my rejection of this suggestion.

I truly believe that I have always acted in the best interests of the community during my time here, and despite our angry disagreement here I believe I continue to do so by standing against this proposal. I consider the treating of the balloting system and the membership in such a way to be wholly against both the principles on which we were founded and those which I hold important to myself, and I also feel it would remove any and all confidence in balloting going forward for the community.

I will say again that any concerns with the system should have been expressed before the vote began, not either during or after the process. It is entirely wrong, in my opinion, that the fundamentals of a balloting system ever be changed in a retrospective way. This is not to say that I would oppose the suggestion that we could examine what happens in ballots when the results are so close - I am not dissatisfied with the way the system currently works, but would be happy to debate it. What I oppose is the retrospective application of those discussions/decisions.

I would like to think it also goes without saying that I am not deliberately going out of my way to provoke reaction in these posts. I am trying to be civil despite being furious about this, though clearly I must be failing in that attempt. I may disagree vehemently with what appears to be most of you on this, but that does not change the fact that I consider everyone here a friend, and I am sorry if that has appeared otherwise.

At the present time I do not plan to contribute further to this thread until the Arbiter election has concluded and our new Arbiter has given their thoughts, if indeed that is what both they and Mech agree is appropriate. I would very much like to see both Mech and (probably) Messiah work together on the response to this, as it will fall under both of their jurisdictional periods. That is not my decision to make though, so I will simply wait and see what happens in this vein.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:43 pm

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SL33PY
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I feel my two cents, as one of the arbiter runners, need to be put here too, even tough my support is not as big as Messiah's.

The current vote was a very close one. But the system that we've had is very clear, the one with the most votes wins PERIOD.

However I do not have a problem with the fact that the losing camp, in this case the ones in favor of a name adjustment, are adamant and willing to keep the topic on the table.

I do think that we need a cool down period. In my eyes, everything pertaining adjusting how we are known on the outside should be laid to rest for the coming year.

The people in the camp in favor of change have now noticed that they weren't prepared properly in order to present their case towards the rest of us in our little community. In a way it's a pity, and don't get me wrong, I'm one of the people that was in favor for a change.

Next year AFTER the arbiter elections seems like a good time to pick this subject back up and discuss it anew from the ground up.



This would ensure that as a community we still respect the poll results no matter what. The winners of the poll got their win, how small a margin it may have been. So we should get of their back with this issue for a while. And I'm sure that a year from now after resting the case a bit and with some better planning, we'll have a totally different poll. Maybe people that voted for eXiles find a better alternative at that time. Maybe some that voted for change will find all the alternatives shit and thus vote to keep the eXiles part.

Whatever the case may be in a year's time. I suggest we move on as a group, as we've always done. Respecting our ways, respecting each other's opinion and respecting the holy poll.

<TL;DR>
-the winner takes it all, until the next (re-)match

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:49 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:I will say again that any concerns with the system should have been expressed before the vote began, not either during or after the process. It is entirely wrong, in my opinion, that the fundamentals of a balloting system ever be changed in a retrospective way.

As I've said before too I have no concerns with this system we use and never have mate, but from memory we've never had such an major poll like this with such strong opinions on all 3 sides and which resulted in such a divided outcome with a difference of only 1 vote a piece. Cos of which polls have always, and rightly been carried in the past but this discussion has been something else entirely. I fully expected this to be a landslide towards keep even though I'd added the third option, as I got the impression most would have disagreed with the proposal but still felt it needed bringing up regardless. Had I known we wouldn't have been able to reach a clear majority group decision I would have said something earlier than I did. I did, however, say something when the "remove" option had been winning for some days and it appeared like that would be the final outcome, and the remove option was the one I voted for obviously. I said exactly the same then as I said when it turned itself around, that I believed we should continue talking before we pushed anything through. To make sure which ever decision we go with is the right one for the group and all 24 people who voted. I just don't think a poll result of 9/8/7 demonstates that as regardless of "keep" having the most votes (by 1) and regardless of whether we think a poll should be pushed through regardless of the results shown, it just does not show a clear enough winner for me if we're taking everyone into consideration. But if allowing ourselves to talk this through a bit more helps us to reach a clearer decision and outcome for the community, which hopefully more of us would be happy with? then yes, for this particular time I think that would be a good idea and the best thing we can probably do now. Not to put our foot down either way and write each other off because we disagree with the principles of doing such a thing. Just continue chatting, be reasonable with each other and work this out as friends :)

Anubis wrote:if indeed that is what both they and Mech agree is appropriate. I would very much like to see both Mech and (probably) Messiah work together on the response to this, as it will fall under both of their jurisdictional periods.

I like this suggestion. Much fairer for both of our (new and previous) Arbiters to work together, doesn't sit well with me having just 1 person as piggy in the middle for something like this which is currently Mech. Not nice on them.

Stracius wrote:I should probably point out that despite my earlier anger, I still consider everone involved to be my friends (yes, you Anny). That is why I am here. I respect everyone's opinion even if I may disagree with them. I won't let anyone who I don't care for know if they've upset me because they ultimately don't want nor deserve my time. On the other hand, everyone here was willing to participate in a serious discussion, and I both respect and admire that.

The result of this vote does not upset me, though I do feel concern for those who might be. I might have even voted to abstain except that I believe we would lose more from not changing vs. remaining content with what we have been (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I disagree with the idea of potential stagnation).

As I stated before, I'm more concerned about how major changes are considered, despite how they may ultimately be superficial. This vote does not change who we are - regardless of how it resulted - nor did I expect it to. But if there are two sides to a debate, I would like to see one side convinced of the other's argument. So far it has been too close for me to see a clear winner, and therefor I expect to see discontent. I do not want to see that happen. We are too close to write off each other because we may disagree. If this thread upsets you in any way, consider why.

The simple fact that we are so closely divided should inspire both sides to realize that further discussion is needed, if not necessary, to maintain the reality that we are a community. We are not a one-party system, nor a two-party system, nor even in politics. We are a bunch of people who love games (and more), and can get together here because, if nowhere else, we can admit to each other that we love to play video games... though I may be speaking for myself especially.

All of this :)


Also I'll say this. Whatever this goes, I do agree with what has been said before by others. At the end of the day this community and the group of friends I have here mean much more to me than our name, whatever it is and whatever our group stands for.
I do strongly believe that we owe it to ourselves to continue talking this through and not make any decisions just yet and I also think as friends we should allow ourselves to do that and be able to continue doing that as the civilized group of people we are too. I won't be pissed off and I won't hold it against anyone or hold grudges if this doesn't go the way I believe it should do, I won't let it get in the way of that. Some of us have been playing together for so many years now and I've known some of you guys longer and better than some people I've known irl. I'm not gonna throw that away or risk damaging it because I may strongly disagree with something. Just not worth it :)
But yeah. Right now I think the suggestions from Mech/BD above are the best way forward personally. Continue talking, discuss some names and vote for our favourite but ultimately bring that new name to a vote against Exiles. I consider that to be fair considering how divided our current result is but this is just my opinion. [Edit; Sl33py posting whilst I was writing too hehe]
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:33 pm

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SL33PY
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M.Steiner wrote: [Edit; Sl33py posting whilst I was writing too hehe]


I felt totally left out, by you not mentioning anything I said, thank god you edited your post, otherwise you had to write a new reply ;) :D

j/k


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